No start sometimes.

1989 PONTIAC TRANS AM
146,200 MILES • 5.0L • V8 • 2WD • AUTOMATIC
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J.T.70
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When warm engine starts instantly but after sitting overnight it only cranks and won't catch the first time I try. When I shut it off and try again it starts immediately. Tapping accelerator has no effect during first crank. If I prime it with some solvent in the air intake it starts immediately. Garage says fuel pressure is ~46 psi, pump is flowing sufficient volume, injectors are working. It has a new ignition coil. MAF and air filter are clean. The start problem began suddenly after a new starter was installed and the oil changed a few months ago. The engine had to be lifted to squeeze the starter into place.
About the same time it also developed a knock on hard acceleration. I just discovered that the knock is helped with enough fuel additives. These additives also helped raise my MPG from 14 to 19 in one shot. I don't know what the timing is or should be. Everyone says they don't know why the MPG suddenly dropped. It had a similar start problem a few years ago which was also helped by priming it and a new pressure regulator and timing adjustment helped but the new garage says they are okay.
P.S. Battery and starter are good, no lights showing on dash, everything looks and sounds right when I turn it on. Throttle-body is clean. I've sprayed cleaner into throttle-body and put into tank. I'm told the injectors are working. Idle is fine once fuel gets to engine. At times it was sounding loud, throaty and "wet" until it warmed up but after driving a bit with the gas additives the engine idle when cold definitely became quieter and smoother and there was no knock on hard acceleration in addition to restoring my MPG to what it was five years ago, for the duration of that tank of gas. (The quantity of additives required to achieve this is above the recommended amount. I'm on my next tank of gas now and additives are diluted.)
Jun 17, 2019 at 5:09 PM
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STRAILER
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Hello,

This sounds like the knock sensor has gone out. To be sure lets run the codes to see what comes up. here is a guide to help you:

https://www.2carpros.com/articles/buick-cadillac-chevy-gmc-oldsmobile-pontiac-gm-1983-1995-obd1-code-definitions-and-retrieval-method

Can you please shoot a quick video with your phone so we can hear the noise? that would be great. You can upload it here with your response.

Please run down this guide and report back.

Jun 18, 2019 at 7:34 PM
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J.T.70
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Thanks, I'll get to it ASAP.
Jun 19, 2019 at 7:31 AM
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STRAILER
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Please let us know what you find. We are interested to see what it is.
Jun 20, 2019 at 11:57 AM
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J.T.70
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Hello. The engine codes gave nothing but '12'. The first attached recording is a cold start. The second is a subsequent start after it had warmed a few minutes. I normally don't hear anything when I turn the key to 'on', but with the jumper wire in place the fan would come on when the key was on. The car hadn't been started in about two days so it wasn't warm.
A couple months ago, before I started using the additives, the first start did not start it at all. On the second try there was no cranking before it caught. It was as fast as it usually is, as if it had been primed by the first try even though it didn't sound like any priming was happening because it wouldn't start at all on the first try.
Now that I'm using the additives it sounds more like it wants to start. On this cold start, I held the starter and the engine caught at thirteen seconds. It idled rough and loud gradually smoothing out as it warmed up. I've never needed to hold the starter on for this long. Every time I tried it started better.
I'm on my second tank of gas with anti knock additives. I went from 13.7 MPG 2 months ago to 19.4 MPG this week. That's a normal number.
Jun 22, 2019 at 5:41 PM
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STRAILER
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Thanks for the videos they really help. This sounds like a weak fuel pump which can be intermittent. To confirm here is a guide to help us test the pressure. Also when it is having a hard time staring can you use starting fluid to make it start?

https://www.2carpros.com/articles/how-to-check-fuel-system-pressure-and-regulator

Please run down this guide and report back.
Jun 23, 2019 at 12:36 PM
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J.T.70
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Thanks for the instructions, but I don't know anything about working on that system and I don't have the tools to do it . Anyway, there are rules against working on our cars where I live and to top it off I have a bad back.

I agree with you that it sounds like it's not getting enough gas when needed (like a weak fuel pump) but the mechanic measured the pressure a couple times as well as the flow rate and they were fine. I was planning on taking it back to him in a few weeks to recheck the fuel pressure, flow, and pump. All I know is the pump is inside the gas tank and I'm told it could cost close to $1,000.00 to fix. The car is too old to put that much into it considering it will start. I was going to see if he could check the pressure differently so he can look for low pressure specifically during the first cold start attempt. Last time it had this exact problem it was the fuel pressure regulator. I suggested the fuel filter but he didn't think it was the problem. Unless I'm mistaken, it seems that would be the easiest thing to change.

What I don't understand is why the pump continues to pump weakly the first time it is used, but then pumps fine after that. I can see if something was sticking but when it got unstuck it would begin to pump fine. This pump acts badly the whole first time it is used and needs to be shut off and on again to pump better.

To answer your question, the engine will start immediately if I put a small squirt of solvent like acetone in the air intake before I try to cold start it. I'm sure it would also start right up if some was squirted into the intake during the cranking.

Do you have any thoughts about the knock I get on acceleration which suddenly started about the same time as the start problem? Could it be running lean when it needs the extra gas? That would also point to a weak pump or dirty filter not flowing as much as it should, right? The guy says the ignition system and injectors are working and I can't think of anything else.
Thanks.

One more thing. When I turn the key on, but not the starter, should I be hearing the fuel pump start up? I can't hear anything. I've also tried keeping the key in the on position for a few seconds before starting, even turning the key on and off but these actions have no effect on the poor first cold start.
Thanks.
Jun 24, 2019 at 4:59 AM
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STRAILER
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It sounds like the fuel pump when you had it replaced did they use an AC Delco unit? if not that is your problem.
Jun 24, 2019 at 10:12 AM
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J.T.70
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You're right, it turns out the new fuel pump was not Delco. Fortunately it seems to be loosening up or something. Today the engine almost started after 2 sec of cranking. In addition, tapping the accelerator now gets gas to the engine during this first crank to help the engine catch quickly. It definitely was not doing that a few months ago. Much better than 13 seconds & 2 start attempts in the recordings I sent. Maybe I can tap the accelerator before I begin to crank to save starter wear while the gas gets to the engine.
Thanks.
Jun 28, 2019 at 3:20 AM
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STRAILER
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Glad you could get it fixed, that kind of problem can be tough. Please use 2CarPros anytime we are here to help.
Jun 29, 2019 at 4:35 PM
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DF_CURT
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Hi. I'm asking this question for a friend of mine who doesn't own a computer.
His 1989 TransAm (305 TBI engine) won't start without a shot of starter fluid. Once it's running it runs fine. He's changed spark plugs, wires and the computer and is now wondering what he can do next. Being it runs we don't feel it's the fuel pump or anything spark related. Any ideas?
Curt
Jun 29, 2019 at 4:35 PM (Merged)
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RASMATAZ
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Do you hear the fuel pump come on for 2 seconds? If not,check the fuel pump fuse and fuel pump relay,then report back with some testing results.
Jun 29, 2019 at 4:35 PM (Merged)
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DF_CURT
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He tells me that you can't hear the pump run when you turn the key and there seems to be no fuel spraying into the carbs prior to cranking.
Curt
Jun 29, 2019 at 4:35 PM (Merged)
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RASMATAZ
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If the fuel pump is not coming On-Check and test the fuel pump fuse and fuel pump relay
Jun 29, 2019 at 4:35 PM (Merged)
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DF_CURT
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OK folks .........he got it fixed. Here's the story. My friend took the car to a repair shop. Seems at one point they (the shop) had 3 mechanics working on it. The check fuses, pumps etc for anything that usually causes this kind of problem. But during one attempt one of the mechanics was in the car getting ready for another attempt at starting it. Up to this point they couldn't get the injectors to pulse (the priming squirts that stray during the cranking stage of starting) during cranking. While turning the key the mechanic tilted the steering wheel up (or down) and during the tilting motion the injectors began to work. Seems there was a broken wire within the steering column that connected to the injectors somehow that caused the injectors to work during the starting (cranking) stage of starting the car.
The fix was to replace the key switch and wires running down the steering column. No problems with the car since the repair. Help I explained the repair enough for everyone so that it made sense.
Curt
Jun 29, 2019 at 4:35 PM (Merged)
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CARIW15@YAHOO.COM
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My 89 GTA starts some times and other times it won't start like it's starving for gas.
Jun 29, 2019 at 4:35 PM (Merged)
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HMAC300
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scan for codes and check fuel pressure with a gauge auto parts rent it. 41-47 psi
https://www.2carpros.com/topics/fuel-system/fuel-pressure-regulator
Jun 29, 2019 at 4:35 PM (Merged)
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J.T.70
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Hello Ken,
Things continue to change almost daily. It has gotten easier to start for the last 4 days in a row.
I noticed that I wouldn't hear the fuel pump when I turned the key on the first time, but I was hearing it on every subsequent start, until it sat overnight again. So that is working, just sticking.
For the last 2 days I have heard the fuel pump before starting for the first time. It almost started with 2 sec of cranking. As mentioned earlier, using the accelerator at this point had no effect (was not giving gas to the engine) for the last 2 months, but now tapping the accelerator does help give a squirt of gas to ensure the engine catches. When it does it catches quickly, idles quietly & smoothly without having to warm up first. It sounds better than the second recording I sent.
I've never had the fuel pump shut off for no reason and some people have said if it's bad, it would do that. I now think it's just getting stuck somehow. I also think something else is causing the fuel to flow just slow enough that the engine is getting a bit starved under load.
My top 2 guesses are the fuel pressure regulator (like 3 yrs ago) and the fuel filter.
I think when the garage checked these things the first time they probably had the car outside so needed to start it to bring it inside. This ruined their chances of getting correct initial pressure measurements.
I'm sure I'll see more changes in coming weeks on this same tank of gas.
Jul 1, 2019 at 2:01 AM
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STRAILER
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Yep, make sure the fuel pump is an AC Delco also lets clean the throttle bore. Here are two guides:

https://www.2carpros.com/articles/throttle-actuator-service

and

https://www.2carpros.com/articles/how-to-replace-an-idle-speed-control-motor-iac

Please run down these guides and report back.
Jul 1, 2019 at 11:21 AM
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J.T.70
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Hi Ken. I couldn't do everything you described, but I could see nothing wrong with any hoses, found no leaks. TB & MAF had already been cleaned a few weeks earlier but I did it again.
It's been slowly starting better on its own over time. Then I realized all the symptoms I was seeing could be due to carbonization in the
cylinders & on the plugs so I did a thorough cleaning by spraying different cleaners into the TB of the running engine 3 separate times.

The results were immediate. The next day it had no trouble on it's cold start and it idled smoother. Here are audio recordings and videos of dash from the first start the day after the triple cleaning. Recordings are inside car, windows open, but not in the garage as were previous recordings. The 3 attachments are just sections from the first cold start after cleaning.

#1 Started by itself, no help from me, gets quieter, camera braced on steering wheel-can see the shaking, sounds like a truck. Trouble codes after check engine light came on were 33 & 36.

#2 About 4 minutes. Warming up, smoother. Temp gauge shows it's not yet fully warmed.

#3 About 7 minutes. RPM a little low, usual about 750 stopped & in gear. Smoother, quieter. Pulling back into garage.

Last couple days no starting problems, no preignition under load. I don't understand the initial shaking & loudness in first video. Maybe because this was the first start after cleaning and it's not used to the new conditions yet? Sometimes I've heard the strange "wet" sound again on mild acceleration too. Kind of a gurgling sound, maybe from passenger side. It sounds obvious to me but nobody knows what I mean.
Thanks.
Jul 21, 2019 at 11:49 AM
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STRAILER
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Thanks for the videos it seems like you have a weak fuel pump let do a pressure test, make sure the gauge up quickly and not slow to pressure.

https://www.2carpros.com/articles/how-to-check-fuel-system-pressure-and-regulator

Please run down this guide and report back.
Jul 22, 2019 at 10:15 AM
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J.T.70
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I can already tell you my mechanic checked the pressure over a month ago. It was about 46 psi and it only dropped a bit overnight. He also measured the volume the pump was putting out and said it was good.
I feel the sudden easier start and no preignition after spraying cleaners into the TB says a lot about the possibility of carbon buildup. I'm going to bring it back soon and I want him to let me see the condition of the plugs. I used to have Delco Rapidfire plugs with a star shaped center electrode with 5 or 6 sharp points for the spark to jump from. Not the same as current Delco Rapidfire plugs. They were great for 11 years until one garage threw them away & replaced them with something they never showed me & without my permission. Problems started after that. For years I've wanted to see them but nobody wants to bother. Unfortunately that plug design isn't made any more. I really want to see these plugs and get an idea how much carbon is in the cylinders. The latest results indicate that I could benefit from another extensive cleaning.

I take this approach because I'm a chemist & used to be in the petroleum industry so I have a supply of some of the kinds of solvents often used in engine and gas line cleaners so I experiment with those. People often get good results just spraying water into the TB. I've done that since the 70's with no problems. I think the multi step procedure I used last did an amazing job. It's unfortunate that I have no test equipment, insufficient tools, can't identify many parts, and can't get at most of them even if I could. I don't work on cars other than to do the simplest maintenance. My job was in a lab. The closest I got to anything involving cars was that I could tell you exactly all the thousands of chemicals found in gasoline the 3 that make premium differ most from lower grades what the high boiling residue was and what cleaned it best. I remember coming in one morning to find the results of an analysis printed out overnight which was 17 feet long, single space type, & I had to identify every one of the chemicals on that list.
Jul 23, 2019 at 3:13 AM
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STRAILER
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Wow, way cool, I always wondered about the chemistry of fuels, now I have an expert ;) yes cleaning the throttle bore can help as well and the fact you can spray cleaner and it starts better tells me lack of fuel (fuel pump) which is common on GM, make sure you get an AC Delco unit and please replace the spark plugs with AC Delco as well

https://www.2carpros.com/articles/throttle-actuator-service

and

https://www.2carpros.com/articles/how-to-change-spark-plugs

and

https://www.2carpros.com/articles/how-to-replace-an-electric-fuel-pump

These guides will help walk you through the repairs needed.

Jul 23, 2019 at 1:04 PM
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J.T.70
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Thanks for all your help!
Jul 25, 2019 at 3:13 AM
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STRAILER
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No problem use 2Carpros anytime can I ask if you found the problem?
Jul 26, 2019 at 9:46 AM
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J.T.70
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Hi Ken, sorry about the delay. In short, the starting gradually got better and better as long as I added cleaners to the tank. I even set a new MPG record for this car, 23.6 mpg vs 11 mpg at its worst. When I'd switch to a tank of gas only (89 or 93 octane, it didn't matter) it would begin to have the same kind of trouble starting again (difficult on the first crank of the day, instant on all starts after that.) This pattern was repeatable. My mechanic kept looking in the same places and found nothing wrong. He didn't test drive it enough or look at parts I wanted to see which limited my guesses. He kept saying fuel pressure & flow rate were good. I felt that eventually things would go back to normal or if the right part was cleaned but he wouldn't look at parts that gave the same symptoms a few years ago. Then in 1 day it sold at a garage sale so now I have a totally different car. Thanks for the help.
Sep 20, 2019 at 8:52 AM
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Thanks for getting back to us. Use 2CarPros anytime, we are here to help. Please tell a friend.
Sep 23, 2019 at 11:05 AM
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LONEWOLF7381
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So the other day I tried starting my car but it wouldn't start so I bought a new battery and changed it out and it would crank but wont turn over so the next day I bought a can of starter fluid and sprayed it into the carburetor and tried to crank it over but I'm getting no power in my dashboard and nothing happens when I turn the key but my gas pump will run that is directly wired to the battery so I tested the battery and its reading 12 volts anyone know why I am not getting power?
Sep 23, 2019 at 11:05 AM (Merged)
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CARADIODOC
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Your description is really confusing, and the lack of punctuation makes it really hard to know how to read it. "Crank" and "turn over" are the same thing, so does it or doesn't it? Having to replace the battery suggests the starter isn't cranking the engine, but if you're using starting fluid, that tells me the engine IS cranking. If it is cranking, why are you testing the battery? What does the dash board have to do with cranking the engine?

Your car came with a mechanical fuel pump. If that has been changed to an electric pump, what turns it off if a fuel line gets ruptured in a crash?

Have you checked for spark?
Sep 23, 2019 at 11:05 AM (Merged)
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LONEWOLF7381
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So my old battery was old and bad so I replaced it. I then tried to start my car and it would crank but not start so I went to the store the next day and bought carburetor fluid. The next day I sprayed some in and turned the ignition to on but none of the gauges turned on so I then tried to start it and nothing happened. So I tested the battery and it reads 12.3v. I have an aftermarket electric fuel pump controlled by a switch. No I have not checked for spark because nothing but the fuel pump gets power. Hope this helps
Sep 23, 2019 at 11:05 AM (Merged)
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LONEWOLF7381
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By the way the guy I bought it from already had it installed so I just text him and asked if he installed anything like an inertia switch when he installed the electric fuel pump. Good question I never thought about that!
Sep 23, 2019 at 11:05 AM (Merged)
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CARADIODOC
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For safety, consider running the fuel pump later from a tap on the oil pressure sending unit. If a fuel line gets cut in a crash, the engine will still run for a minute until the float bowl runs empty in the carburetor, but at least if you're sitting in a courtroom, that will show you understood the potential danger from a fire hazard and made an attempt to address it.

The electrical problem sounds like bad cable connections at the battery. 12.3 volts is too low. 12.2 volts is what a good but discharged battery will read. A good, fully-charged battery will read 12.6 volts. You might want to charge the battery for an hour or two at a slow rate, but I think there's more than that going on.

Turn on the head lights so current is trying to flow, then measure the battery's voltage again right on the top posts if it has them. If you only have the side terminals, measure between the engine block and the larger terminal on the starter. If you still find 12.6, (or 12.3) volts, move the negative probe to a paint-free point on the body. An unpainted bolt head is usually a good place. You should find the same voltage there. Based on what you find, we'll figure out where to go next.
Sep 23, 2019 at 11:05 AM (Merged)
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OHYAH84
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I have a 1984 pontiac trans am 15th anniversary edition.it has ran beautifully for a while, until it died on my dad while on his way to work and now the car wont start or even turn-over for that matter(absolutely no noise when I turn the key) and it has a brand new battery so I'm wondering what is wrong?
Sep 23, 2019 at 11:05 AM (Merged)
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FIXITMR
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do dash engine lights come on when turning key?
Sep 23, 2019 at 11:06 AM (Merged)
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LONEWOLF7381
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Thanks I got it running, I talked to the previous owner and he directed me towards a wire on the back of the alternator so I tightened it and it fixed the problem.
Sep 23, 2019 at 11:06 AM (Merged)
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OHYAH84
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Nope absolutely nothing.
Sep 23, 2019 at 11:06 AM (Merged)
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CARADIODOC
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Dandy. That would agree with the 12.3 volts you found, indicating the battery wasn't being recharged while you were driving. Happy to hear it's solved.
Sep 23, 2019 at 11:06 AM (Merged)
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SATURNTECH9
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Just to add to this one sounds like the alternator might have failed.Do you have a multimeter to see if the battery went dead?
Sep 23, 2019 at 11:06 AM (Merged)
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FIXITMR
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start checking battery connections and fusible links on starter.
Sep 23, 2019 at 11:06 AM (Merged)
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OHYAH84
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We got a new battery maybe a month or a couple weeks before this happened its brand new, we even tried to jump the car and it wouldn't start
Sep 23, 2019 at 11:06 AM (Merged)
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TYRFRYR
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This is what I have tried/checked. First off I built the engine myself. I am just stumped!
Compression is great! Spark is great! Plugs are great! Fuel is great! Battery is Great! Starter is great! Turns over great but won't start! What am I missing. Never came across this problem in the 12 years since I built it. The engine only has about 5,000 miles on it.............
Sep 23, 2019 at 11:06 AM (Merged)