Loss of power, irregular missing

TERMAXCO

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54 POSTS

Thanks.
�
Yes, it sounds like timing to me; and, might we have double symptoms? � One that shows up per spark timing due to crank and distributor being out of sync and the other simultaneous one due to crank and valve cam out of syns?� � But would a loose chain put the distributor behind the crank rotation showing a retarded spark timing (assuming there is no crank sensor to follow only the crank)? But we saw only too advanced timing, viz:
When we put a timing light on #1 cylinder, it fired intermittently and jumped around all over the place but always way too advanced before TDC and before the engine timing marks at any idle speed - The timing light advance was some less when I retarded the distributor, but it was still too advanced before TDC.(Still showing before the engine timing marks). Usually before the engine timing marks and, never at or after TDC. (At original dist position, it won't really start anymore as its getting worse.)
(We were thinking the intermittent light may be a bad connection?). Of course, when rev up engine it goes way further counter clockwise down the balancer circle before TDC.
So, looks like timing never actually gets retarded and stays too advanced. I assumed the dist. Gear and coil etc. Were okay since engine revs up so good under load or not (can put it in first gear, stomp on it, and it jumps and goes till hold RPM's steady, then it goes crazy).
I pulled the distributor cap anyway and didn't see any cracks in cap.� Rotor and terminals appeared to be a little dirty so cleaned them but it made no improvement or difference. Wires and plugs were already new.� There's nothing much else in the distributor to inspect (I'm still only used to points, condenser, and cams in there).
I wonder why it revs up/accelerates good? And what would get progressively worse?
Thanks!

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Monday, November 23rd, 2020 AT 12:57 PM

JACOBANDNICKOLAS

MECHANIC
109,644 POSTS

If the timing is jumping all over the place, it sounds like a distributor issue. Also, since you can't retard the timing, that leads me to believe the distributor is one tooth off. That may have been caused by a bad tooth on the distributor gear. Also, the idea that it's too far advanced makes sense that it would kick the engine back when cranking.

I need you to remove the distributor. Before you do that, make sure there isn't excessive play in the rotor.

Before you remove the distributor, place the crankshaft so the timing marks are at top dead center (TDC). Remove the cap and note the position of the rotor to help you remember when putting it back together.

Next, remove the lock bolt and remove the distributor. Inspect the gear, play between the gear and the shaft at top, and look into the engine where it engages to confirm nothing is damaged.

When you reinstall, confirm the crank is still pointing at TDC. Then carefully install the distributor so that the rotor is pointing to the number 1 sparkplug wire in the distributor cap.

The idea that timing is jumping all over the place leads me to believe that it is something with the distributor itself. If the timing chain was that bad, I feel you would hear it. If you replaced the rotor, make sure it is fully seated and the correct one was provided. Check for play between the gear and where the rotor attaches. Something is allowing it to jump around.

I attached a pic below of the firing order. Let me know what you find.

Joe

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Monday, November 23rd, 2020 AT 9:05 PM

TERMAXCO

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Sorry for another delay in getting back to you.

We left off with me checking the distributor. In checking it just now, I noticed the shaft was not loose (less than 1/16th rotation movement with no end play). I noticed the rotor cap was fairly tight but it could be force moved about � - inch at its end. Which, is not right but don’t think it is moving around on its own (Or might explain the timing jumping.)

Found something right off before taking distributor out so checking with you first:
At number 1 cylinder compression stroke TDC, the dist. Rotor was way past the No. 1 cylinder distributor cap terminal matching the timing light showing way too much advance.

When the distributor is retarded as far as it will go (like we had it when it ran better) the rotor is back closer to the number 1 cylinder terminal at TDC as the timing light showed less advance (but still too much).

(I double checked with my own 91 Toyota truck 22 RE and its rotor was way less advanced past number 1 terminal at TDC (pretty much right on it)).

So, it does appear to be mechanical. Distributor gear tooth skip or timing chain?
I guess I should take off valve cover and look in there?

Still wonder why we are getting a TPS circuit fault diagnosis from truck? 2 problems? I still wonder why still got a TPS circuit fault code? Or could it show up when timing is not right?

Thanks!

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Wednesday, December 2nd, 2020 AT 6:48 PM

JACOBANDNICKOLAS

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109,644 POSTS

Hi,

Before taking the cover off, remove the distributor, inspect it, and then reinstall it setting the timing correctly.

Here are the directions. Try this and see if it takes care of the issues.

______________________________________

1993 Toyota Truck Pickup 2WD L4-144.4 2366cc 2.4L SOHC (22R-E)
Procedures
Vehicle Powertrain Management Ignition System Distributor Service and Repair Procedures
PROCEDURES
REMOVAL:

1. Disconnect negative battery terminal.
2. Disconnect primary distributor connector.
3. Remove distributor cap retaining screws, distributor cap and spark plug wires.
4. Remove hold down bolt and remove distributor.

INSTALLATION:

1. Install a new O-ring to the distributor housing and apply a light coat of engine oil prior to installation.

Distributor Installation Timing Marks

pic 1

2. Turn crankshaft pulley until the timing mark is aligned with 5° BTDC mark.
3. Ensure rockers on cylinder #1 are loose. If not, rotate crankshaft 1 full turn and re-align timing marks.

Distributor Rotor Alignment

pic 2

4. Install distributor rotor. Begin insertion of the distributor with rotor pointing upward and mounting hole centered with bolt hole.
5. Install distributor hold down bolt and tighten by hand. Remove rotor.

Crankshaft Position Sensor Showing Signal Rotor Alignment

pic 3

6. Align the signal rotor tooth with pickup coil projection.
7. Torque distributor hold down bolt.

Torque: 19 Nm (14 ft. Lb)

8. Install rotor and distributor cap with spark plug wires.
9. Reconnect primary distributor connector and negative battery terminal.

Firing Order: 1 - 3 - 4 - 2

10. Warm engine up to operating temperature and adjust ignition timing. See: Ignition Timing > Adjustments > Ignition Timing

Let me know what you find.

Joe

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Wednesday, December 2nd, 2020 AT 8:13 PM

TERMAXCO

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Hi, thanks. I pulled distributor shaft back and put it back in per one tooth over (back counterclockwise) and this put the rotor at the exact right position (and matches my other truck). So, started truck and it seemed to run good.
I may not be good at setting timing but did it according to info and my light was still intermittent and it jumped around some still but not as much as it was jumping. I had to retard distributor from original position (we had marked) to get the timing to jump around the right 5 degree mark. RPM's were reduced. With distributor back in original position, it showed too much advance.
It all sounded like it fixed the problem and I thought all was fine (and its almost right now) but when drove truck under load it had insufficient power (the kind that runs smooth but sounds like a deep sucking sound instead of truck going good) and had a slight irregular cut out. So, put distributor back to original position (which is a little bit back from maximum rpms per advance) and the truck ran better but still under powered and missing some.
My bads: 1. When I saw the distributor go in right position one tooth over, I got hopeful and then forgot to pull dist. All the way out to check the gears over? Should I pull it back out and check?

2. Old geizer forgot and left the wrench on the crankshaft pulley shaft when started the truck and it took the crank shaft pulley bolt off. I have it back on but not fully torqued (can't remember how I locked up engine to do this?) In case that might cause the bad running engine (assuming not).

I'm assuming moving rotor is tight enough not to be moving on its own?
So, I haven't got a clue now or what would cause a distributor to skip a tooth or did it? Are we chasing the timing chain?

I did hear a noise in engine top or front but it wasn't exactly a slapping and it has now stopped.

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Thursday, December 3rd, 2020 AT 1:54 PM

JACOBANDNICKOLAS

MECHANIC
109,644 POSTS

It is possible. However, the sound you heard when under a load, are you sure there are no vacuum leaks at the air box, air intake tube, or where it attaches to the throttle body?

Also, I'm starting to wonder if the catalytic converter is possibly partially plugged. Is there a chance you could remove a pre-cat O2 sensor to see if makes a power difference? Also, has engine compression been checked?

Let me know.
Joe

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Thursday, December 3rd, 2020 AT 8:20 PM

TERMAXCO

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Compression is good. Hoses and connections etc. Are good with no vacuum leaks.
I thought the new symptoms seemed like a clog, but son said initial problem happened instantly and the truck accelerated great with no miss and full power to wheels at initial problem (i.E, major cut out at holding rpms steady). And accelerated good after son put new unadjusted TPS on.

I can loosen or take exhaust off at engine since all is rusted and welded if that will work to test.

The "sucking" sound was not accurate, sorry. It's that throaty exhaust low power struggling sound. I.E, engine running smooth and increasing in rpms correctly but truck is just not going down the road like it should and you get that throaty struggling sound from the exhaust - engine racing but power just not going to wheels. And this new low power, and the low rough idle (idle can't be increased anymore at idle screw) and slight cut outs, a little hesitation and almost stalling at idle and take off, etc. Are new different symptoms so, don't know yet if still timing caused or another problem of something else entirely (I read they are TPS symptoms). How did dist. With no play in gears, get one gear off or did it? Or did something else skip? I do have a loose rotor if forced but still assuming its tight enough not to move on its own?
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Friday, December 4th, 2020 AT 11:58 AM

JACOBANDNICKOLAS

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Hi,

Yes, removal of the system would work, but that's a lot of work. Are you able to just remove an oxygen sensor before the catalytic converter? It won't be perfect, but if the converter is plugged, you should notice a difference.

Let me know. As far as the rotor, it shouldn't turn on the shaft. It should be keyed in place.

Let me know.

Take care,
Joe

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Friday, December 4th, 2020 AT 8:47 PM

TERMAXCO

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I am unable to remove 02 sensor without twisting the welded bolts off. The 02 sensor nuts are rusted down tight to where no wrench will fit and no room for vice grips and they did just slipped on rusted nuts. Moreover, somebody welded the whole system to itself including the mounts. But will check for a clog by loosening at engine (unless that causes some other sensor to create another problem? Let me know if taking the exhaust loose at engine will cause another problem. Thanks). If not, this will check for a clog.
But, I'm thinking the instant problem (we now know is a timing problem) while truck was still accelerating good afterwards means there is no instant clog that is only showing up now. And we still don't know the cause of the timing problem. I guess I'll just take it all apart and see if the chain skipped and go ahead and replace it. Its got to be something mechanical messed up. Maybe that will solve the new low power too or at least get it down to one problem.
Rotor has a flat spot to match the flat spot on distributor shaft to keep it steady. But in this case, I can, with minor force, move the rotor about 1/4 inch when measuring at the tip of its radius length but, it seems to be tight enough not to move on its own but, I will replace that first to make sure.
I also busted the plastic case of (what I think is) the main relay to ECU. For now I just taped it up. Please let me know if you think that might cause the new problem?
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Saturday, December 5th, 2020 AT 5:22 PM

JACOBANDNICKOLAS

MECHANIC
109,644 POSTS

Hi,

I would replace the rotor if it is moving. Also, disconnecting the exhaust won't hurt anything for testing. However, I'm leaning towards your thoughts as far as how would it be plugged one minute and not the next.

If you decide to put the chain on, here are the directions. The attached pics correlate with the directions.

__________________________________________

1993 Toyota Truck Pickup 2WD L4-144.4 2366cc 2.4L SOHC (22R-E)
Procedures
Vehicle Engine, Cooling and Exhaust Engine Timing Components Timing Chain Service and Repair Procedures
PROCEDURES

pic 1

PREPARATION FOR REMOVAL OF TIMING CHAIN
1. REMOVE CYLINDER HEAD
2. REMOVE RADIATOR
3. 4WD: REMOVE FRONT DIFFERENTIAL
4. REMOVE OIL PAN
(a) Remove the engine undercover.
(b) Remove the engine mounting bolts.
(c) 2WD: Place a jack under the transmission and raise the engine approx. 25 mm (0.98 in.)
(d) Remove the 16 bolts and 2 nuts.

Pic 2

(e) Using SST and brass bar, separate the oil pan from the cylinder block.
SST 09032-00100

HINT: When removing the oil pan, be careful not to damage the oil pan flange.

TIMING CHAIN REMOVAL
1. With PS: REMOVE PS BELT
2. With A/C: REMOVE A/C BELT, COMPRESSOR AND BRACKET

pic 3

3. REMOVE FLUID COUPLING WITH FAN AND WATER PUMP PULLEY
(a) Loosen the water pump pulley set bolts.
(b) Loosen the belt adjusting bolt and pivot bolt of the generator, and remove the drive belt.
(c) Remove the set nuts, fluid coupling with fan and water pump pulley.

4. REMOVE CRANKSHAFT PULLEY
(a) with A/C (without Air pump) or with PS (with Air pump): Remove the No.2 crankshaft pulley.

Pic 4

(b) Using SST to hold the crankshaft pulley, loosen the pulley bolt.
SST 09213-70010,09330-00021

pic 5

(c) Using SST, remove the crankshaft pulley.
SST 09950-50010

pic 6

5. REMOVE NO.1 WATER BYPASS PIPE
Remove the 2 bolts and pipe.

Pic 7

6. REMOVE FAN BELT ADJUSTING BAR
(a) With PS: Remove the bolt and PS lower bracket.
(b) Remove the 3 bolts and bar.

Pic 8

7. DISCONNECT HEATER WATER OUTLET PIPE
Remove the 2 bolts, and disconnect heater water outlet pipe.

Pic 9

8. REMOVE CHAIN COVER ASSEMBLY
(a) Remove timing chain cover bolts shown by the arrows.
(b) Using a plastic faced hammer, loosen the chain cover and remove it.

Pic 10

9. REMOVE CHAIN AND CAMSHAFT SPROCKET
(a) Remove the chain from the damper.
(b) Remove the cam sprocket and chain together.

Pic 11

10. REMOVE PUMP DRIVE SPLINE AND CRANKSHAFT SPROCKET
If the oil pump drive spline and sprocket cannot be removed by hand. Use SST to remove them together.
SST 09950-40010
11. REMOVE GASKET MATERIAL ON CYLINDER BLOCK

COMPONENTS INSPECTION
1. MEASURE CHAIN AND SPROCKET WEAR

pic 12

(a) Measure the length of 17 links with the chain fully stretched.
(b) Make the same measurements at least 3 other places selected at random.

Chain elongation limit at 17 links: 147.0 mm (5.787 in.)

If over the limit at any one place, replace the chain.

Pic 13

(c) Wrap the chain around the sprocket.
(d) Using a caliper gauge, measure the outer sides of the chain rollers as shown. Measure both sprockets.

Minimum crankshaft sprocket: 59.4 mm (2.339 in.)
Minimum crankshaft sprocket: 113.8 mm (4.480 in.)

If the measurement is less than minimum, replace the chain and 2 sprockets.

Pic 14

2. MEASURE CHAIN TENSIONER
Using a caliper gauge, measure the tensioner as shown.

Minimum tensioner: 11.0 mm (0.433 in.)

If the tensioner is worn or less than minimum, replace the chain tensioner.

Pic 15

3. MEASURE CHAIN DAMPERS
Using a micrometer, measure each damper.

Limit damper wear: 0.5 mm (0.020 in.)

If either damper is worn or less than minimum, replace the damper.

TIMING CHAIN INSTALLATION

pic 16

1. INSTALL CRANKSHAFT SPROCKET AND CHAIN
(a) Turn the crankshaft until the shaft key is on top.
(b) Slide the sprocket over the key on the crankshaft.
(c) Place the timing chain on the sprocket with the single bright chain link aligned with the timing mark on the sprocket.

Pic 17

2. PLACE CHAIN ON CAMSHAFT SPROCKET
(a) Place the timing chain on the sprocket so that the bright chain link is aligned with the timing mark on the sprocket.
(b) Make sure the chain is positioned between the dampers.
(c) Turn the camshaft sprocket counterclockwise to take the slack out of the chain.

Pic 18

3. INSTALL OIL PUMP DRIVE SPLINE
Slide the oil pump drive spline over the crankshaft key.

HINT: If the oil pump drive spline is difficult to install by hand, install using SST.
SST 09608-35014 (09608-06040)

pic 19

4. INSTALL TIMING CHAIN COVER ASSEMBLY
(a) Remove the old cover gaskets. Clean the gasket surface. Install new gaskets over the dowels.
(b) Slide the cover assembly over the dowels and pump spline.
(c) Insert the bolts as shown and torque them.

Torque:
8 mm bolt: 13 N.M (130 kgf. Cm, 9 ft. Lbf)
10 mm bolt: 39 N.M (400 kgf. Cm. 29 ft. Lbf)

pic 20

5. INSTALL FAN BELT ADJUSTING BAR
(a) Temporarily install the adjusting bar to the alternator.
(b) Install the adjusting bar to the chain cover and cylinder head.

Torque: 13 N.M (130 kgf. Cm, 9 ft. Lbf)

pic 21

6. INSTALL HEATER WATER OUTLET PIPE
Connect the heater water outlet pipe to the timing chain cover with the 2 bolts.

Pic 22

7. INSTALL NO.1 WATER BYPASS PIPE
Install the pipe with the 2 bolts.

Pic 23

8. INSTALL CRANKSHAFT PULLEY
(a) Install the crankshaft pulley and bolt.
(b) Using SST to hole the crankshaft pulley, torque the bolt.
SST 09213-70010 and 09660-00021

Torque: 157 N.M (1.600 kgf. Cm, 116 ft. Lbf)

(c) with A/C: Install the No.2 crankshaft pulley.

Pic 24

9. INSTALL WATER PUMP PULLEY AND FLUID COUPLING WITH FAN
(a) Temporarily install the water pump pulley and fluid coupling withfan with the 4 nuts.
(b) Place the drive belt onto each pulley.
(c) Stretch the belt tight and tighten the 4 nuts.

10. ADJUST DRIVE BELT TENSION
11. With A/C: INSTALL A/C COMPRESSOR BRACKET, COMPRESSOR AND BELT
12. With PS: INSTALL PS BELT
13. INSTALL OIL PAN
(a) Remove any old packing material and be careful not to drop any oil on the contacting surfaces of the oil pan and cylinder block.
Using a razor blade and gasket scraper, remove all the packing (FIPG) material from the gasket surfaces.
Thoroughly clean all components to remove all the loose material.
Clean both sealing surfaces with a non-residue solvent.

NOTICE: Do not use a solvent which will affect the painted surfaces.

Pic 25

(b) Apply seal packing to the joint part of the cylinder block and chain cover, cylinder block and rear oil seal retainer.
Seal packing: Part No.08826 - 00080 or equivalent

pic 26

(c) Apply seal packing to the oil pan as shown in the illustration.
Seal packing: Part No.08826 - 00080 or equivalent

Install a nozzle that has been cut to a 5 mm (0.20 in.) Opening.

HINT: Avoid applying an excessive amount to the surface. Be especially careful near oil passages.

If parts are not assembled within 5 minutes of applying the seal packing, the effectiveness of the seal packing is lost and the seal packing must be removed and reapplied.
Immediately remove the nozzle from the tube and reinstall the cap after using the seal packing.

(d) Install the oil pan over the studs on the block with the 16 bolts and 2 nuts. Torque the bolts and nuts.

Torque: 13 N.M (130 kgf. Cm, 9 ft. Lbf)

(e) Lower the engine and install the engine mounting bolts.
(f) Install the engine under cover.

14. INSTALL RADIATOR
15. INSTALL CYLINDER HEAD
16. 4WD: INSTALL FRONT DIFFERENTIAL

___________________________________________________

Let me know if this helps.

Joe

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Saturday, December 5th, 2020 AT 8:31 PM

TERMAXCO

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Thanks for directions and pics. A real help. If you're still on board: on questions, let me know if I just need to dismantle some more to check more first.
I went ahead and figured whatever forced me to move distributor back one gear (Or, moved it one gear ahead) is still broke regardless of whatever else is also wrong; and, that leaves only distributor gears or chain or chain gears.

Finally I got truck in garage late today and took off few things and the valve cover to look in there. Have not taken front chain cover off yet to see crank gear.

Things are not looking right in there to me:
Update and questions:
Distributor gears looked okay to me (can't see how they could have skipped); Chain was loose on both sides till tightened it up on guide side (right) at #1 cylinder TDC; But, I think on the tensioner side (left) all seems loose but not sure how tight its supposed to be. I can also lift the chain up off the cam gear very slightly (about a 1/16 inch). Further down at tensioner it did seem to be some tighter. I didn't see any shiny chain link so far.
But observed 2 things at #1 cylinder TDC: (if I did it right - I put the only pulley mark at 0 mark on plate and distributor is pointing to #1 cylinder terminal. Let me know if there's more to it).

1. All the rockers on the left side facing engine (incl. #1 cylinder) (don't know if intake or exhaust) are tight with no gap even those not on any cam lobe like #1 cylinder; and, #1 cylinder and all not on lobe on the right side are properly loose or gapped. Can't figure that out?

2. The cam timing chain gear had no timing marks I could see on the side facing out (me) so, I looked and found them on the inner back side facing in the engine (so looks like someone put it on backwards? - I can tell it has had a chain put on it in the past.) And, the biggest concern is that at #1 cylinder TDC these cam gear timing marks were not pointing to the top but were well past top towards the right. I'd say clockwise about the middle between 12 o'clock and 15 degrees after.
Questions:
Shouldn't both rockers on #1 cylinder be loose and all others not on cam lobe on left side?
Shouldn't these can gear marks be on the outside (does it make any difference?)

Should these cam gear marks be pointing to top if engine mark is at #1 cylinder TDC? Or should the be pointing down and I just can't see them yet? The 2 marks I see on back side look exactly like the ones in pic 17.
Should there be this, or any, play in the chain and tensioner or should the tensioner hold all tight at all times?
Does any of this indicate any problem since moving the distributor back one gear kind of fixed it.
Thanks.

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Wednesday, December 9th, 2020 AT 5:38 PM

JACOBANDNICKOLAS

MECHANIC
109,644 POSTS

Hi,

The timing is done by identifying the bright chain link location is aligned with the marks on the sprockets. See pics 1 and 2. Now, it isn't odd that you can move the chain a bit. However, it is odd the marks are on the rear of the chain.

See if the links line up. See the attached pics for directions for setting the engine timing.

Let me know what you find.

Joe

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