Intermittent crank no start?

1997 CHEVROLET EXPRESS
180,000 MILES • 5.7L • V8 • 2WD • AUTOMATIC
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SL1M3G1RL
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Hello. I'm currently experiencing an intermittent crank no start issue with my vehicle listed above 1500. It has been driving me crazy for months and I'm at a loss for where to go from here. The issue first started about 2 months ago when I filled up my tank with gas, the van started rough (cranking longer than usual and sputtering a little). Then after I parked it for the night it wouldn't start at all the next morning. It would start right up with starter fluid then stop when the spray was stopped so I assumed it was a fuel delivery issue. However, I was getting fuel up to the Schrader valve and could hear my fuel pump running, so I wondered if it could be the antitheft system (I believe it should be pass lock with this model but can't confirm it) which cuts power to the fuel injectors. I tried a key relearn procedure that I saw on YouTube and after not starting all day my van fired right up. However, I believe this was probably a coincidence because that procedure has not worked during any of the crank no start episodes afterwards. Also, my engine turns over without a key just by twisting the lip of my ignition cylinder, so it seems unlikely that there is an active antitheft system. I next tested my fuel pressure with a test kit and found that it was reading a bit low- around 55 PSI koeo which is out of spec for the 60-65 PSI koeo I'm supposed to see. I learned that the poppet nozzle injectors I have in my csfi fuel injection system are super sensitive to low fuel pressure, so I decided to replace the fuel pump. I ruled out the pressure regulator because my system was holding pressure super well for a long period of time even when I switched the ignition off. I also started by replacing my fuel filter before replacing the pump and I saw a temporary increase in fuel pressure and the van drove fine for a couple days before the problem came back. I checked the new fuel filter, and it still looks good so that's not the issue. I also started to notice that whenever my van would break down and then get towed it would work immediately after being towed, so I thought maybe there was debris getting stuck in my fuel pump sock that was getting dislodged during towing. I replaced the fuel pump and was now seeing 62 psi koeo. However, the issue is still coming back about every 4 days. I will first noticed that my van cranks for longer than usual and starts a little rough (sometimes it skips this step). And then after I park it if I leave it for a little while, even just 5 minutes it will crank and then sputter and die and just crank and crank after that. I have realized that whenever this problem appears I can temporarily fix it by jumping up and down on my bumper for a couple minutes. It will then start up and drive fine for another 4 or so days before it starts to start rougher and rougher, or occasionally just crank no start out of nowhere. At this point the van is extremely unreliable and can't even really be used. I wanted to add that I can always hear my fuel pump running when this issue occurs. And I consistently check all of my fuses which are always fine. I also scan it for codes frequently and only ever get a p0157 which is low voltage to o2s b2s2. This makes sense because I don't have a catalytic converter. One time clearing the code when my van was broken down got it to start right up, but it hasn't worked since then so it must have been a coincidence. The issue also doesn't seem to be temperature related, it has occured while the engine is hot or cold and in different weather. I have not been able to find anything weird by reading live data on my code scanner. Any input would be very much appreciated. Thank you in advance!!
Nov 19, 2022 at 10:14 PM
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JACOBANDNICKOLAS
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Hi,

Do you have a live data scan tool? If you do, when the engine is cold, check the signal from the engine coolant temperature sensor (ECT) to see if it is near the ambient outside temperature.

If the ECT is sending a signal that is incorrect, it can cause the PCM to adjust the air/fuel mixture so far rich or far lean that the engine won't run. And it will likely not set a code because the PCM doesn't recognize if it is wrong. If it gets a signal, it accepts it as correct.

You indicated that when it starts it stumbles. If it is dumping fuel, that would cause that to happen. Have you ever noticed any smoke from the exhaust when that happens?

Let me know if you do have a scan tool with live data and what you find.

Take care,

Joe
Nov 20, 2022 at 8:48 PM
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SL1M3G1RL
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Hi Joe!

Thanks for the reply. Yes, I have a live data scan tool. I have checked my ECT reading many times and it is always near the ambient temp. I do notice a lot of visible exhaust fumes sometimes, but my van has always been like this because I don't have a catalytic converter and I have several exhaust leaks. I need to get that fixed. I have also checked my short-term fuel trim readings if that helps. They are always within 10% usually indicating slightly lean. As of today, my van is still not producing the crank no start condition although it does crank for a while when I don't cycle the ignition first. Today I decided to install a new good quality battery because I remembered that my ground terminal always fits slightly less snug than it should. I'll let you know what the results of that are tomorrow.
Nov 20, 2022 at 9:02 PM
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JACOBANDNICKOLAS
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Hi,

Sounds like a plan. I will watch for the results.

Take care,

Joe
Nov 21, 2022 at 6:19 PM
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SL1M3G1RL
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Hi Joe,

I don't really have much to report from today because everything went really well... The issue is hiding right now. I experimented with starting my van cold without priming the fuel pump (well letting it prime for more than a second) first to see if it would cause the issue but it didn't. It did sputter a bit that first time starting. Then I made sure my new battery was secure and took it on a couple test drives today bringing it up to temp and everything. It started up great every time. I also noticed that my p0157 code isn't back yet although looking at the live data my b2s2 o2s is consistently reading 0v. I also looked at other live data points throughout the day like the ECT and short-term fuel trim and everything was normal. I guess I just need to keep test driving it lots every day and see if I can get the problem to happen again. It always seems to run completely fine when I have the time to work on it and then break down once I finally have the confidence to take it out somewhere important, haha.
Nov 21, 2022 at 7:21 PM
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JACOBANDNICKOLAS
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If you are getting 0v from the O2 sensors, either they are bad or not getting a power signal.

Let me know if things change. If I don't hear from you for a few days, have a great Thanksgiving.

Take care of yourself,

Joe
Nov 21, 2022 at 7:40 PM
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SL1M3G1RL
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Hm, well I thought my bank 2 sensor 2 oxygen sensor would be showing 0v since it's supposed to be basing its input off of the catalytic converter which I don't have. But maybe it's just bad all together. However, it seems really unlikely that a bad O2 sensor would be the cause of this issue, right?
Thank you and enjoy your holiday too.
Nov 21, 2022 at 7:45 PM
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SL1M3G1RL
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One thing that I did notice while starting my van just now is that it sort of "drops out" for a second when I first start it. My engine starts and then goes really quiet for 1 second like it's going to stall and then recovers. This often happens before a crank no start episode. But this time I tried starting it a few times afterwards and it started fine every time.
Nov 21, 2022 at 8:17 PM
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JACOBANDNICKOLAS
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Hi,

Regardless of the missing converter, the sensor should still be functional and measure the exhaust output. Could that be causing issues? Anything is possible.

Have you checked to see if there are any connection issues?

Joe
Nov 22, 2022 at 5:50 PM
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SL1M3G1RL
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Got it. I haven't found any visible connection issue although it does look like the wiring is very cramped and pressed against the body of my van. It is right after where the cat was cut out so there has definitely been work done in that area. Maybe it would be worth it to get the o2s checked out by a mechanic.
Nov 22, 2022 at 5:57 PM
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JACOBANDNICKOLAS
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Hi,

No need. If you have a multimeter, you can do it yourself. Here is a link that explains how it's done. The only thing you will need other than a multimeter is a helper to hit the throttle for you.

https://www.2carpros.com/articles/how-to-test-an-oxygen-sensor-02-sensor

Let me know what you find or if you have questions.

Take care,

Joe
Nov 22, 2022 at 7:13 PM
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SL1M3G1RL
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Awesome, thank you so much!
I will do these tests ASAP and get back to you.
Nov 22, 2022 at 7:37 PM
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SL1M3G1RL
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Here's a clip of the dropping out/ gasping noise my engine often makes when starting.
Nov 23, 2022 at 4:13 PM
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JACOBANDNICKOLAS
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Hi,

I heard it. It could be a fuel pressure-related issue or a few other things. Are you saying that when this happens, there are times it won't restart?

Check the sensor first. If that checks good, then we need to determine what is being lost. When it won't start, see if there is spark to the plugs.

Here is a link that explains how it's done:

https://www.2carpros.com/articles/how-to-check-for-ignition-sp

If there is spark, see what happens with starting fluid. If it starts and then stalls, we have a fuel-related issue.

Let me know what you find, and I hope you have a good Thanksgiving.

Take care,

Joe
Nov 23, 2022 at 8:32 PM
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SL1M3G1RL
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Hi Joe,

Yes, I will check the sensor asap. I think the symptom itself comes from a fuel related issue because my van always starts and then stalls with starting fluid when it is doing the crank no start. I usually notice harder starting and sputtering as well as the noise I showed you when a crank no start episode is about to happen. And usually, it begins when I go to start the van and then it makes that gasping noise and then actually dies and then will only crank after that. I can usually then fix that issue by jumping up and down on my bumper which will get it to run fine for another few days. The confusing part is that whenever I've tested my fuel pressure it has always been pretty good. When the issue first occurred it was at 55psi koeo which is too low (supposed to be 60-62 psi) but the pressure was holding well. So, I replaced the fuel pump and filter and now I get consistently good fuel pressure. I want to test if I'm getting pulse to my injectors next time the crank no start happens but I'm still waiting for it to happen again. Will let you know how the o2s sensor test goes soon.
Enjoy your holiday tomorrow!
Nov 23, 2022 at 8:40 PM
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JACOBANDNICKOLAS
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Hi,

If you suspect the injectors, see if it starts with starting fluid first. If it does and then stalls, then you are likely correct.

As far as the injectors, each one will have a pink wire in its connector. With the key on, all of the injectors' pink wires should have battery voltage. If they don't, wiggle the fuse around first to see if it isn't making a good connection. Also, move the pink wires around because there are two giant splices they are a part of. We could be losing power at the splices. See pic 1 below

The idea that you jumping on the bumper makes it work sounds like we either have a loose or poor connection.

Let me know what you find.

Joe

See pic below.
Nov 24, 2022 at 10:32 PM
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SL1M3G1RL
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That wiring diagram is very helpful thank you. To clarify, that is specific to my vehicle, right? My fuel injectors themselves are under my intake manifold but the electrical connection for the spider assembly is on top so I believe I can check the wires there. I'm still not having any issues though so I'm not sure if my results right now would reveal what's actually happening during the crank no start moments. I plan on doing the O2S test tomorrow as well as well as pulling out my engine fuse block and looking under it because I noticed some corrosion and rust there and I'm wondering if there are wiring issues underneath it. I'll let you know what those tests tell me.
Thank you for your help and have a great night.
Nov 24, 2022 at 10:51 PM
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JACOBANDNICKOLAS
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Hi,

I hope you had a great Thanksgiving. I guess it's time to focus on Christmas now. LOL

As far as the wiring is concerned, yes, that is specific to your vehicle. If you need any schematics, let me know which ones and I'll try to get what you need.

Take care and you have a good night as well.

Joe
Nov 25, 2022 at 7:03 PM
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SL1M3G1RL
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I really appreciate your help with schematics, they can be hard for me to find sometimes. It would actually be super helpful if you happen to have access to a chassis wiring diagram for my van, a full one would be great but I'm mainly looking at my ignition switch circuit right now. Just so you don't have to go back and check it's a 1997 Chevy express 1500 5.7l V8. I found some damaged wiring unde my steering wheel today that seems to be connected to my ignition switch so I'm fixing that right now. I also have some other electrical issues like lights working intermittently that I should check out. I remembered that the last time my van broke down I was having weird electrical symptoms like my window motors working really slowly (even though my battery gauge showed that I had good battery voltage). I'm kind of wondering if I have an electrical gremlin that messes with my fuel pressure at this point. I also did the oxygen sensor test today and my B2S2 O2S tested bad. However, I doubt this could be the cause of my problem since that one is mainly just there to provide feedback on how the cat is working, right? I don't think it should have much of an impact on the air fuel ratio but maybe I'm misunderstanding. I will try to replace it asap either way.
Nov 25, 2022 at 7:38 PM
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JACOBANDNICKOLAS
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Hi,

As far as the exterior lighting is concerned, believe it or not, there are two designs. LOL Does the vehicle have sealed beam headlamps or composite headlamps?

Let me know.

Joe

See pic below.
Nov 25, 2022 at 8:04 PM
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SL1M3G1RL
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Ooof I'm not sure haha. I will check when I get home around 9. Do you know how I can tell? Sorry not familiar with what the difference is.
Nov 25, 2022 at 8:10 PM
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SL1M3G1RL
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I can pull out my bulb and replace it so does that mean I have composite?
Nov 25, 2022 at 8:12 PM
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JACOBANDNICKOLAS
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Hi,

Yep. It sounds like you have composite headlamps. If you are able to remove only the bulb and the lamp assembly is separate, that is what you have.

I attached the wiring schematic below. I had to cut it in half to make it readable for you. I did overlap them so you can follow from one to the next.

Let me know if this helps.

Take care,

Joe

See pics below.
Nov 25, 2022 at 9:27 PM
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SL1M3G1RL
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This is awesome thank you!! I will get to work with these tomorrow.
Nov 25, 2022 at 9:35 PM
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JACOBANDNICKOLAS
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You are very welcome. If I can help in any way, let me know.

Take care,

Joe
Nov 25, 2022 at 9:39 PM
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SL1M3G1RL
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Hi Joe!

It's been a while; I hope it's still okay to reply to this thread. I've been driving my van since I last talked to you. It was running just fine until about a week ago. I've now been having the intermittent stalling and crank no start episodes again. My van is actually stuck in a grocery store parking lot right now because it just wouldn't start again after I went grocery shopping today. What I noticed today is that although my fuel pump relay is working (I can see if closing when I pop the little cover off and I hear it click, even tried multiple relays) my fuel pump is currently not getting power. I can't hear the fuel pump running when I turn my ignition to the on position, and I normally do head it prime. I replaced my fuel pump recently, so I don't think it's the fuel pump/sending unit itself. I'm guessing there must be an issue elsewhere in the circuit. I don't see any other fuses or relays that should be involved besides the fuel solenoid fuse which looks good. Do you have any ideas of things I can try to get the fuel pump running? I saw a video on YouTube (I'll link it) where a mechanic was talking about how the fuse boxes on similar years of Chevy express vans have been known to go bad and cause low fuel pressure/crank no start issues so I'm wondering if this could be the case and how I would rest for that if so. Thank you for any advice! Here is the video: https://youtu.be/8Tr5Rk2Q1xg
Ella
Dec 21, 2022 at 10:05 PM
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JACOBANDNICKOLAS
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Hi,

That isn't good. Especially near Christmas. As far as the pump. I'm not sure if you hear the pump prime and nothing more or if you hear nothing. Let me know that.

Also, I attached a pic of the fuel pump relay below. I noticed a splice in the power supply to the secondary side of the relay. I'm questioning if we have a poor connection at that splice.

Do me a favor. Remove the fuel pump relay and there will be one connector pin in the relay box that should have 12v at all times. Confirm that for me. If there isn't one, the splice is where we need to go. Of course, I'm assuming the fuse is good and has power to and from it.



Let me know what you find.

Joe

See pic below.
Dec 22, 2022 at 9:30 PM
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SL1M3G1RL
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Hi Joe!

Thanks for getting back to me, sorry it took me a while to respond. I found a pin for the fuel pump relay that has power at all times, but I was a little less than 12 V. 11.7 or something like that. However, my battery was not fully charged at the time because it keeps draining due to a short, so I need to redo that test with a healthy battery. I was wondering what was draining my battery all the time and I remembered that a couple weeks ago someone told me that my horn randomly went off for about 30 minutes while I was gone. My horn itself seems to be damaged now because it only sounds like half its former self. Sure enough, when I went to try and start my van today, I reconnected that battery (I've been leaving it disconnected to try and prevent a strain on it from the short) and I heard a weird gurgling noise coming from near my fuse box. I noticed that my horn relay was hot, so I pulled it out right away and the noise stopped. Whenever I put the relay back in the noise comes back. I don't really know exactly where it's coming from, and it just sounds like a strange gurgling. I also wanted to say that the actual holder of my fuel pump relay has experienced a lot of corrosion in the past and although I've tried to clean it up, I think it has pitting from the corrosion. I'm wondering if this is resulting in a bad connection with the fuel pump relay even though the relay itself is closing. I was wondering if you might be able to send me a wiring diagram that has my horn circuit on it? I was going to try and track down that short. Even though I don't think it's related to my no start issues it's definitely not helping.
Dec 27, 2022 at 1:25 PM
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SL1M3G1RL
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Hello,

I just wanted to add that I charged my battery up more (although it was still at 12.4 ish when I checked unfortunately) and I checked that pin on the fuel pump relay holder again and this time it read around 12.37. However, my fuel pump is still not running. I can hear it trying to very weakly for a second, but it doesn't build up enough fuel pressure to start the engine and it is way quieter and weaker than usual. I did get the van to start yesterday but I'm not sure what it was that got it to work. I traced all the fuel pump wiring by hand and wiggled it around and also applied Dialectric grease to the relay. I can't seem to recreate that today.
Dec 27, 2022 at 4:35 PM
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JACOBANDNICKOLAS
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Hi,

I attached the wiring schematic for the horn below. Based on what happened, I suspect the relay simply failed internally. Have you tried switching it with a different one that has the same part number? If there isn't one, here is a link explaining how to test a relay:

https://www.2carpros.com/articles/how-to-check-an-electrical-relay-and-wiring-control-circuit

Were you able to check the voltage at the fuel pump itself?

Let me know.

Joe

See pic below.
Dec 27, 2022 at 6:47 PM
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SL1M3G1RL
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Hi Joe,

That makes sense I will get a new horn relay asap and try it out. I haven't tested the voltage at the fuel pump yet, I can do that today or tomorrow. I know there are 4 wires coming from my fuel pump but I'm not exactly sure which one should have power at all times. Do you mind helping me out with that? Thank you and I really appreciate all your help.
Dec 28, 2022 at 11:10 AM
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JACOBANDNICKOLAS
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Hi,

I don't mind at all. From the fuel pump, nothing will have power. Instead, power is sent to it from the fuel pump relay.

Here is how it works. The orange wire from the ECM-B fuse has power at all times but at the relay itself, the circuit (switch) is open.

If you look at pic 1 below, I numbered each wire. For the circuit to work, the number 1 wire receives voltage from the PCM. Wire 2 is used as a ground for that wire. When that happens, it energizes the primary side of the relay causing an electromagnet to pull the switch closed on the secondary side of the relay. Once that switch is closed, power from wire 3 (hot at all times) can go to the pump.

Let me know if that helps or if you have other questions.

Take care,

joe

See pics below.

Dec 28, 2022 at 4:16 PM
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SL1M3G1RL
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Thank you so much for the wiring diagrams that's very helpful. I see the grey wire coming from my fuel pump connector. So that grey wire should have around battery voltage with my key in the on position, right?
Dec 29, 2022 at 11:29 AM
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JACOBANDNICKOLAS
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Hi,

Yes, that is the power source. However, without the engine running (key on) it will only receive power for about two seconds when the key is first turned on. That is the period of time for priming the system. Once the engine starts, the pump runs continuously.

Let me know what I can do to help.

Take care,

joe
Dec 29, 2022 at 8:46 PM
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SL1M3G1RL
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Thank you. Then I will try to test for power at that grey wire while someone turn on the ignition. I think I can disconnect the fuel pump clip and put my multimeter leads directly on the ground and power pins. I'm a little stuck and wondering where to go from here now. I know my fuel pump doesn't seem to be getting power although my relay is working and my PCM is giving the signal. I just don't really know where to go from here. The issue could be within the fuse box itself, a grounding issue, or anywhere along the wiring going to the fuel pump. I want to recheck all my grounds soon because I have had other strange electrical symptoms like intermittent dash lights in the past and I wonder if there could be a bad ground somewhere. Any input on other tests I should try or stuff to check would be appreciated. Thank you as always and have a great evening!
Dec 29, 2022 at 9:09 PM
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JACOBANDNICKOLAS
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Hi,

If you determine there is power available at the pump, then either the pump has failed, or we have no ground. At that point, we will check the ground circuit to confirm the cause.

If there is no power and we do have power out from the relay, then we have an open circuit between the relay and the connector. At that point, we need to start tracing the power supply to determine where the issue is.

Hang in there.

Joe
Dec 29, 2022 at 9:46 PM
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SL1M3G1RL
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Thank you, that's a very helpful response. I will let you know when I get the results of checking the power at the fuel pump. It's been raining a lot so hopefully I get a chance soon!
Best,
Ella
Dec 29, 2022 at 10:10 PM
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JACOBANDNICKOLAS
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Hi,

You are very welcome. Hang in there. We'll get it going. By the way, keep the rain. LOL It was nice here today.

Take care,

joe
Dec 30, 2022 at 12:11 AM
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