Crank no start

Tiny
AUTOSMITHSCUSTOMS
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  • 2003 CHEVROLET BLAZER
  • 4.3L
  • V6
  • 2WD
  • AUTOMATIC
  • 109,000 MILES
Fuel pump kicks on. No code, the only thing I'm seeing is in live data injector pwm bank 1 and 2 reads 54.73ms.
Saturday, July 9th, 2022 AT 6:15 PM

30 Replies

Tiny
AL514
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Hello, it sounds like you should do a fuel pressure test. I've never heard of a fuel injector pulse width being that high before. If that's an actual reading, which may be incorrect data to be honest, that reading almost seems impossible, do you have any Long- or Short-Term Fuel Trim readings on your scan tool? or any temperature sensors reading -40 degrees? Something is seriously off here. I don't see a Fuel Pressure sensor in the wiring diagrams so you're going to have to do a Fuel pressure test with a manual gauge.
I think you're going to find a lack of pressure, possibly a clogged-up fuel filter. Some sensor on the truck is causing the ECM to open the injectors far too much. What kind of scan tool are you using?

This truck has Fuel Metering Body Assembly, these are known for failures, this is not a conventional fuel injector setup, this unit has a built in Pressure Regulator, below is a description of the components and testing. But I still think a Pressure Test is needed here, even though you hear the pump.

https://www.2carpros.com/articles/how-to-check-fuel-system-pressure-and-regulator
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Saturday, July 9th, 2022 AT 6:39 PM
Tiny
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Got my reading through the Schrader valve When I tested Fuel pressure it was a little low. Around 54, if I'm not mistaken it should be between55 and 60. I'm using Autel scan tool. I ordered a fuel filter the other day just soaked in liquid wrench and will replace that tomorrow. I'm going to attach some screenshots from the scanner for you. Thank you for helping me out.
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Wednesday, July 13th, 2022 AT 5:41 PM
Tiny
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The fuel pressure spec is 55-62 so its within spec, but I think there is an issue with the fuel injection system. Because all of your Long Term and Short-Term Fuel trim data is all reading zero, there is no reason for the Injector pulse to be so high, I think you should take out a few spark plugs and see if they are wet with fuel, if they are not, make sure you have Spark from the plugs. If the Spark plugs are wet with fuel, try holding the gas pedal to the floor, that will put the vehicle into clear flood mode and it might start, there isn't much data to go on there, but that Air/Fuel Ratio of 5:1 is incorrect. It should be around 14:1, so there is something going on with that Fuel Metering system, they are known for a lot of problems. The fact that there's no codes is very odd too. If the spark plugs come out soaked in fuel, then the fuel injection system is stuck open. 54ms is an unheard-of amount of on time for a fuel injector. Average Fuel Injector on time is around 2-3ms.
Did the fuel pressure stay up around 55psi or did it drop off? If your fuel pressure stayed where it should, checking the Fuel Injection Metering unit would be next.
Also is that data during cranking or just Key On data? Just looking at the MAP sensor voltage reading of almost 5 volts looks like the only key on reading. Engine cranking would create vacuum in the Intake manifold and the MAP sensor voltage would be lower.
I'm going to add the entire fuel system diagnostic process, but I think you're going to find the Injector Metering Unit might need to be replaced.
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Wednesday, July 13th, 2022 AT 11:01 PM
Tiny
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I screenshot a little more for you. After replacing MAF it started. But now I get long crank time. Runs rough and stalls. It was key on I believe. These are running let me know what readings you would like to see. Tomorrow I'm going to try to get them all.
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Saturday, July 16th, 2022 AT 8:15 PM
Tiny
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Thanks for the live data PIDs, some things I notice look ok and some don't.
First since you have an Autel, on the 1st page below, can you Graph these two oxygen sensors Bank 1 Sensor 1 and Bank 2 Sensor 1. Those are going to be the two sensors that the ECM should be monitoring most and will give us the best idea how fuel control is doing. Your Fuel Injector pulse is not 54ms anymore, but still 5.6ms is over twice as much as it really should be. For whatever reason these Injector Pulse width numbers are very high. If the Oxygen sensors are responding slow and/or hanging lean (lower voltage reading below 0.450mv) that can cause the Pulse width to increase because the ECM is trying to add fuel to the air/fuel mixture due to the lean condition it could be reading from bad Oxygen sensor signals. (Second page below). If you can Graph those Oxygen sensors, we can see if they are hanging rich or lean. Just seeing one voltage reading doesn't tell much.
On the third page, the Grams per second at idle of 4.7g/s is okay. A rule of thumb with MAF sensors is, you have a 4.3liter engine, so 4.7g/s is close to the engine size. It changes somewhat when you get to larger V8 or V10 engines. But that's pretty close. But you also have misfire counts on cylinder number 1. I know the vehicle is not running great yet, but it's getting better. And if these Fuel trim numbers are correct, they look great, so I'm not exactly sure what's going on. I'm hoping that the high injector pulse width, whatever is causing that, didn't cause the Catalytic Converter to melt down and clog up the exhaust.
I just know that these Fuel metering setups have a very high failure rate. And I'm not sure why you aren't getting any codes, there are misfires in the history. I'd expect some codes for that, also for the huge 54ms pulse width.
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Sunday, July 17th, 2022 AT 12:07 AM
Tiny
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Okay, I got every page aside from the advanced evap. I really appreciate your help. Today I
ran through the clear flood mode like you said. I also purged the injectors.
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Sunday, July 17th, 2022 AT 3:53 PM
Tiny
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You weren't able to Graph the Oxygen sensors voltage PIDs? Are any of them staying low, for example I see Bank 1 Sensor 1 34mv, 134mv, is it staying that low? Both front Oxygen sensors (Bank 1 Sensor 1) and (Bank 2 Sensor 1) should be cycling from 0.200 to 0.800mv roughly. I'm having a hard time pulling up some of these pages because there's so many, but I do see Misfire Counter Status (Invalid), but 12 Cycles of misfire data. Also, no cylinders are counting misfires.
How is this thing running, is it drivable? A couple other things that look odd, Injector pulse is still high, I know this looks like a cold start up too, so it would be a little high due to that, but the pulse width should come down. The Oil Pressure sensor voltage is reading 0 volts, and the Spark advance looks normal at 18 degrees, but the camshaft position is retarded at -4 degrees.
If this thing isn't running well, and there are no codes present, which I would think something would have shown up, there's data that doesn't look right.
What kind of Autel do you have? Does it only scan the engine ECM?
I was just mentioning the Clear Flood mode because it can help you to hear the engines cranking cadence. For example, if you had a cylinder that was low on compression you would hear an uneven sound while cranking the engine and it not being started. When I do a relative compression test with my oscilloscope, I want to get a basic compression reading of all cylinders without the fuel injectors firing. So, I would do a clear flood cranking or disable the fuel injectors another way to prevent cylinder wash. Thats why I brought that up, you can hear a cylinder low on compression by doing a clear flood cranking. It will be that uneven type of sound of the crankshaft slowing and speeding up at different rates. Do a YouTube search of a Relative Compression Test.
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Sunday, July 17th, 2022 AT 5:23 PM
Tiny
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The oil pressure sensor is broken. I haven't got around to replacing it. I did have a P0335 crank position sensor code come up before and no, I can get scans on everything not just ECU it will scan PCM, BCM, TCM, even the seats, lol. I didn't notice you asked for a graph I'll get that for you ASAP. I really appreciate your help.
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Monday, July 18th, 2022 AT 6:40 AM
Tiny
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Graphs.
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Monday, July 18th, 2022 AT 7:19 AM
Tiny
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I noticed every time I check live Data evap is always venting.
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Monday, July 18th, 2022 AT 11:14 AM
Tiny
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It will Purge the evap if there's pressure in the gas tank and at idle, being that its summer that will cause higher pressure in the gas tank. But that Bank 1 Sensor 2 Oxygen sensor signal looks stuck at 52mv. I would expect it to be higher 0.600mv-0.700mv range. The ECM is probably compensating for that sensor reading, that might be why your pulse width is so high right there. The ECM is going to take that reading for a somewhat lean exhaust. So, either that sensor is not working, or there is an exhaust leak just before it and its reading oxygen coming in from that. But it looks like a dead sensor to me. I can see by the 1-amp heater circuit reading, that the heater is not the cause of its low voltage, I'm actually surprised it didn't set a code for that. Unless the Catalytic Converter is clogged up and that's why that sensor is not reading anything. Doing a back pressure test at one of the front Oxygen sensor locations will tell you if there's a failed Cat. At idle you shouldn't have anything over 1 to 1.5PSI back pressure. Anything higher than that and I would inspect the Cats Substrate. Being that you had that weird super high pulse width, which might have ruined the Cat. You might want to unbolt the front and just inspect it there to begin with. You'll be able to tell if the honeycomb front section is melted down. Might be your whole running issue right now. Bad MAF leads to a bad CAT, now it won't run.
A bad Cat was one of my first worries seeing those injector numbers.
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Monday, July 18th, 2022 AT 1:51 PM
Tiny
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The exhaust did have a home in it before the cat for a while I just repaired it last week. It finally through a PO300 code. It runs okay until it warms up then it starts misfiring. I'll order should I get the O2 sensor.
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Monday, July 18th, 2022 AT 3:53 PM
Tiny
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Are you able to unbolt the front of the Converter to get a look at it? I wouldn't want you to replace that rear 02 just to find out it's a clogged Converter. Or you can try the pressure test by removing one of the front oxygen sensors. Most regular vacuum gauges are able to read positive pressure up to about 10psi. A clogged Converter can cause all kinds of issues, since exhaust can't get out, the engine has trouble taking air in, and you'll have a reading like that on the rear oxygen sensor plus misfiring cylinders. Any rich running condition is usually how Converter failures happen.
With a rich running condition, it would run good cold then at warm up it would start misfiring because it takes more fuel to run a cold engine, as it warms up it requires less. And the over 5ms injector pulse width is twice as high as I would expect. With the no start condition you had to begin with, I'm not sure how many times it was attempted to start, but every time it was cranked over, there was fuel being dumped down the exhaust. I know it's a pain to check the Converter but knowing that it's okay is worth it. If that rear oxygen sensor has failed and is giving the ECM incorrect voltage reading and the ECM was over fueling because of it, another reason Converters fail. It didn't look like there was any activity on that graphed view, unless you saw something I didn't.
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Monday, July 18th, 2022 AT 4:22 PM
Tiny
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I'm going to try to get a look into the cat. In mean time I replaced the02 sensor also replaced the MAP sensor because I had a new one in my box. It's running. Alot better. But I think we might have a vacuum leak now as well.
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Friday, July 22nd, 2022 AT 10:52 PM
Tiny
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Now that oxygen sensor looks active, that other sensor was completely stuck low. But if you had a vacuum leak, you would notice high positive fuel trim numbers at idle, and they would improve at higher rpm. So, if you look at that Bank 2 Sensor 1 signal and the Bank 1 Sensor2(downstream 02), see how those signals almost mirror each other. That's what I would expect to see from a failing Cat. I know it's not good and definitely not what you would want to hear, but that's why I would check it. The high pulse width means there was over fueling going on. Sometimes it can clear up the Cat if it can get hot enough and/or still have the ability to store oxygen. As for checking the converters condition, doing a back pressure test at one of the front oxygen sensors locations is much easier than unbolting the converter. You just need a vacuum gauge that will measure a little over zero psi. Or sometimes if one of the front oxygen sensors is close enough to the front of the converter, I'll take it out and inspect the converter with a borescope. I will actually do that to show a customer the condition of the converter by taking pictures with the borescope, so I have a record of it as well.
What makes you think there's a vacuum leak?

https://www.2carpros.com/articles/how-to-test-a-catalytic-converter
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Friday, July 22nd, 2022 AT 11:31 PM
Tiny
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I'm going to get up in the cat tonight if I find it is clogged. Do you think it would be okay if I gutted it until I can replace it? I appreciate you sticking with me through this.
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Saturday, July 23rd, 2022 AT 10:19 AM
Tiny
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It depends on the emissions inspection in your state. When is it due for emissions inspection next? If you're good for a year or whatever the time is, yeah, you can gut it out. It might set a p0420 for low cat efficiency or oxygen sensor code, so the check engine light might be on. But it won't hurt the engine at all. We need to get inspection and registration done here every year. I just would not feel good if you replaced more parts just to find the Cat was completely melted down. That was my first worry when I saw those huge pulse width numbers. It was that rear oxygen sensor causing that being stuck low voltage. Sending the ECM into a rich command.
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Saturday, July 23rd, 2022 AT 10:54 AM
Tiny
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Here we get it every two years and I just had it done only ever going to have to get inspected one more time because then it hits that 25-year Mmark and never have to worry about again. So, I pulled the cat down. I shined a 500 lumen flashlight in the morning and I could barely see it coming through and that was in a dark room.
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Sunday, July 24th, 2022 AT 11:16 AM
Tiny
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So, the Cat totally melted down and clogged up the exhaust? If so, you'll notice a huge difference is performance after it is cleared out. If it broke up there might be parts of it through the rest of the exhaust. Possibly in the muffler baffles too.
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Sunday, July 24th, 2022 AT 11:38 AM
Tiny
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Hello, just one thing I wanted to mention, I was thinking about this last night, and its probably not a big deal at all. But with the Cat gutted out, since there is not going to be any Hydrocarbon reduction due to the missing Cat, and since we have seen that the rear oxygen sensor on this vehicle obviously has a bigger role in fuel strategy than one might think. The rear Oxygen sensor may read a richer signal because the Cat is not helping. So the ecm may lean the mixture somewhat, but I dont think it will be alot because the front oxygen sensors will play an even bigger role in air/fuel ratio. But watch the Fuel Trim numbers, especially the Long Term fuel trim. Those numbers are going to tell you how much the ecm is either adding fuel (positive fuel trim) or taking fuel away (negative fuel trim). So just keep and eye on those with your scan tool in Live Data. If you notice any of them going over %10 +/-, that would be too much. I dont think it will go nearly that far considering the Fuel trim numbers I have seen on your scan data. Just something to be aware of, you dont want the ecm to lean the mixture out too much. These systems are designed all around emissions, and thats why they react the way they do.
Also let me know how it runs, Im curious after all this time, we got things straightened out. Thanks

Al
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Monday, July 25th, 2022 AT 10:11 AM

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