Blown head gasket or maybe something else?

1997 FORD F-150
200,000 MILES • 4.6L • V8 • 4WD • MANUAL
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SWILSON3828
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Good evening,

A very peculiar situation I have going on. I was driving this truck a few days ago and it stalled. All of the gauges were fine; oil pressure was reading fine, hot/cold was mid way and stable. I did hear a faint ticking should and noticed one of the cylinders didn't appear to be firing. I was close to my house, so I let it sit a bit, started it, and was able to get home. As I was coming down my road the truck knocked off again, so I just let it coast to my house. Checked the radiator, found no water. Pulled the dipstick and an oil/water mixture was almost halfway up the dipstick. Unscrewed the oil pan plug and probably three gallons on think, chocolate milky mixture of oil and water came out. My first thought was a blown head gasket. Anyway, the next day I changed the oil filter and oil as I was going to try to clean the system of the mixture by changing the oil multiple times. Got everything changed, the truck started up and ran fine, with all of the cylinder's firing. Still heard a faint ticking but as the oil circulated it quieted down for the most part. About an hour after that I decided to refill the radiator with water and attempt to try some sealer to try and seal off the blown part of the gasket area. I put one gallon of water in the radiator, and then another gallon, and then another gallon. I ended up putting prob 6, maybe 7 gallons of water in that radiator before it stopped taking water. I was wondering how much water the radiator took because, to me, it took a lot more than it should have....and thew whole time you could hear the water draining down (I just thought it was filling the hoses and the coolant ports on the engine)
Anyway, i decided to check the oil level again. When I pulled the dipstick out water started shooting out of the dipstick tube hole so obviously that's where all of that water went. My first thought, as stated above, was a blown head gasket, but after I thought about it for a while a simple blown head gasket would not have allowed water to drain into the oil pan that fast, especially since the motor hadn't been started so as to build any pressure. Any ideas as to what could be causing this issue other than a blown head gasket? A few weeks ago, I had an issue with the #4 plug and getting it out, so I undid some hoses around the heater core ports to better access the plug. As odd as it sounds is there any chance, I could have hooked a hose up the wrong way or something? I'm aware that there are a couple of oil cooling lines that run somewhere into the oil pump.
Anyway, thanks for any insight.
Feb 5, 2024 at 6:58 AM
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JACOBANDNICKOLAS
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Hi,

These originally had cylinder heads cracking due to engine coolant issues from the manufacturer. It could be a head gasket if it failed at a water port. Have you tried to check engine compression to see if one of the cylinders is low?

I have procedures for testing for a head gasket issue, but I think we are beyond those checks.

At this point, I would suggest checking compression to see if there is one or more cylinders with low compression. That will point us in the right direction.

Here is a link explaining how it's done:

https://www.2carpros.com/articles/how-to-test-engine-compression

You will need a compression gauge, but most parts stores will lend one to you.

Let me know what you find.

Joe
Feb 5, 2024 at 10:53 AM
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SWILSON3828
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Hi Joe and thanks for the reply. I'm going to test the cylinders later today and I'll let you know what I find out. It just seems almost impossible to me that water would drain that quickly into the oil pan from a blown head gasket or a cracked cylinder head, especially since all the cylinders are firing when I run it with just oil in it and no coolant. I'll let it run for 30 seconds or so. I'll let you know what I find.
Feb 5, 2024 at 9:48 PM
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JACOBANDNICKOLAS
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Hi,

Check at the front and rear of the cylinder heads to see if there is evidence of a leak. Take a look at the pics below. I believe that is a water port that is being plugged. If it is leaking there, it could go directly into the engine. It's a theory, but worth checking.

Let me know.

Joe

See pic below.
Feb 6, 2024 at 12:57 PM
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SWILSON3828
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Good morning,

I was unable to check the compression yesterday but I will check it today and let you know what I find. Regarding the possible water port/ports I will take a look at that too. Just to clarify, your suspicion that it might be a blocked water port, are you thinking that a block crack may have developed due to the blocking of the water port, or are you referring to something else? I do know there was a lot of rust in the radiator when I changed the coolant several months ago. Thanks again for the responses.
Feb 6, 2024 at 10:03 PM
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SWILSON3828
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Just a follow up. I'd drained all of the oil from the engine, and the fluid from the radiator.
Made sure the oil pan screw and the oil filter were snug and just for the sake of doing it I decided to blow into the overflow tank where I fill the radiator, and there was pretty much no resistance. I decided to take the air filter housing off so I could get a better look and when I disconnected it from the throttle body oil came out. I haven't started this truck since before water started coming out of the oil dipstick tube, so this sludgy mess was in the TB prior to my fiasco with the water coming out of the dipstick hole. I know sometimes this could be an indication of worn rings, but there was a decent amount of sludge in the TB that came out when I removed the air filter housing. Thanks
Feb 7, 2024 at 3:54 AM
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JACOBANDNICKOLAS
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Hi,

Wow, that is a mess. I don't think the rings caused this. When you pressurized the reservoir, you said there was little resistance. Could you hear anything that would indicate where the air is going?

Joe
Feb 7, 2024 at 8:10 AM
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SWILSON3828
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Good evening. It sounded like it was coming from around where the lower radiator hose goes into the water pump. I pulled the oil plug from the oil pan to see how quickly the water was getting to the oil pan, and water started coming out of the oil drain hole in the pan in about 5 seconds after pouring water into the overflow tank, the water is making it to the water pump and then right down to the oil pan. Makes the think there is a crack in the block right behind the water pump. Not sure what else it could be. My brother mentioned the timing cover gasket, but I'm not sure how that would cause water to drain into the oil pan. Thanks for the reply
Feb 7, 2024 at 8:21 AM
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JACOBANDNICKOLAS
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You may want to inspect the plugs in the pics I attached above. Also, how much coolant was added before it started leaking from the pan? For example, was the radiator level low or high?

Joe
Feb 7, 2024 at 8:24 AM
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SWILSON3828
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Both the radiator and the oil were drained so the water level in the radiator was pretty much empty. I poured maybe a gallon of water into the overflow tank before it started draining from the pan within 5 seconds or so.
Feb 7, 2024 at 8:38 AM
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SWILSON3828
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I may have told you wrong. The large part of the lower radiator hose connects, I'm guessing, to the block as the water pump is higher on the front of the engine. My guess is the small hose that runs off of the main hose goes to the water pump housing.
Feb 7, 2024 at 9:32 AM
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SWILSON3828
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Hi Joe,

Just to follow up the compression on all of the cylinders were within a range of 115 to 120 except for the #4 cylinder, which I was unable to check. I'd previously had to tap and rethread #4 and place an insert in it. The plug wouldn't come out easily and I didn't want to risk messing with that insert. All cylinders appear to be firing fine when there is only oil in the engine. Thanks
Feb 19, 2024 at 5:18 AM
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JACOBANDNICKOLAS
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Hi,

At this point, I feel we have exhausted most possibilities. It is likely time to remove and inspect the cylinder heads. I don't think it is a compression issue, but rather, I'm questioning if we have a crack in a water jacket allowing coolant to mix in the crankcase.

Let me know your thoughts and what I can do to help.

Take care,

Joe
Feb 20, 2024 at 10:45 AM
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SWILSON3828
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Thank you for your thoughts, my brother had mentioned that same possibility. I've already removed the radiator and am waiting on the tool to remove the fan blades.
If I may ask, what, exactly, is the lower radiator hose connected to? That hose has the large connection at the radiator, and then a large and small connection on the other end. Whatever is causing the leak is right there where the opposite end connections are. Thanks again
Feb 20, 2024 at 11:27 AM
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JACOBANDNICKOLAS
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Hi,

There are a couple different set ups. However, the largest hose should go to a casting on the block. If there are smaller hoses branching off, they are for the heater and will have a steel pipe that runs under the intake.

As far as the cooling fan nut. If the special tool doesn't help, retain the pulley the best you can. Then, place the wrench on the bolt and give it a good two or three wacks with a heavy hammer. It will break loose for you.

Let me know.

Joe
Feb 20, 2024 at 12:11 PM
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SWILSON3828
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Hey Joe. Sorry it has taken so long to update you with the situation with the truck. Had some family issues arise that took me away from dealing with the truck for a bit. Just to update I've taken the radiator and the cooling fan out. used a pneumatic hammer and cooling fan removal tool) Still no clue what is causing the water to go right to the oil pan. I did some more research and came across the same issue, but with a completely different vehicle.... It turns out it was a bad water pump. Also read that the 4.2L's for the 1997 and 1998 F150 had bad intake and front gaskets that also caused this issue. Any thoughts? Thanks again
Mar 24, 2024 at 5:33 AM
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JACOBANDNICKOLAS
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Hi,

I want you to remove the oil filter and add coolant. See if it comes out of the cooler assembly. It's a theory, but it may crack or damaged allowing oil to run directly into the engine.

Let me know.

Joe
Mar 24, 2024 at 11:00 AM
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SWILSON3828
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Hi, and thank you for the reply. I've removed the oil pan plug, and when i add water to the radiator, after a couple of pints of water/coolant added, it starts to come right out of the oil pan. I've removed the oil filter as suggested, but water starts to come out of the pan before it comes out of the port that would feed the oil filter. There is something between the lower radiator hose and the oil coolant housing that is allowing water to pour into the oil pan. I can't imagine that it is a blown head gasket or a faulty intake manifold gasket because i don't think enough water has been poured into the radiator to make it that high into the block. Apologies for the caps. It has got to be something around the area where the oil filter housing goes into the block.
Mar 24, 2024 at 11:32 AM
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JACOBANDNICKOLAS
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Hi,

With the oil filter off, does coolant come out of where the filter attaches? Also, the water pump is mounted to the engine front cover. It's possible that something has failed with the housing it mounts to. We may need to remove the pump to check.
Mar 24, 2024 at 12:10 PM
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SWILSON3828
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Hi, and thank you. No, water comes out of the oil pan prior to it coming out of where the oil filter connects. I poured about 32 ounces of water into the lower hose today and it started coming out of the oil pan. There was likely some residual water in the block as well prior to me pouring water into the lower hose.
Mar 24, 2024 at 12:24 PM
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SWILSON3828
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I'm not certain how much water it takes to fill the actual block, but I find it hard to believe the water gets high enough to leak down through a head gasket or manifold gasket.
Mar 24, 2024 at 12:26 PM
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SWILSON3828
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Hi Joe, I wanted to provide some information that may or may not be significant to my situation.
As you mentioned I poured some water into the lower radiator hose to see if it came out of the oil filter connection/port. No water came out of the oil filter connection, but still came out of the oil pan. What I've just noticed is that there is still water in the oil cooler housing right there where the lower radiator hose connect, so water can't be draining into the pan from the oil cooler housing because, as you know, if it were draining into the pan then water wouldn't be present at the lower hose connection. Obviously i'm not a seasoned mechanic, but since water is still present at that connection that would mean the leak causing water to run directly to the oil pan has to come from somewhere higher than that oil cooler housing hose connection, right? Now water, I'm guessing, fills directly to the water pump when filling the radiator. If I may ask do you know whether water/coolant fills any water jackets prior to water getting to the water pump that, if cracked, would allow water to dump into the pan?? Thanks for the help.
Mar 25, 2024 at 6:42 AM
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SWILSON3828
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Also wanted to mention that I took the thermostat out and I poured about 3 pints of water in before water started coming out of the pan. Also, if I lift up the opposite end of the lower radiator hose and put water in it, it doesn't leak until water gets to about the height of the water pump, then it starts coming out of the pan. This info may or may not be relevant. Thanks
Mar 25, 2024 at 7:53 AM
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JACOBANDNICKOLAS
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Hi,

You are correct. Water seeks its own level, so based on what you are indicating, I would remove the water pump for inspection. Coolant will make its way to the pump first before it starts entering the block.

Let me know.

Joe
Mar 25, 2024 at 1:03 PM
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SWILSON3828
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Hi,

I removed the water pump and didn't see any issues with the pump itself, so the leak is definitely somewhere shortly after where the water pump pushes the water. I'm guessing it goes to the manifold.
Mar 26, 2024 at 10:28 AM
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SWILSON3828
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Hi,

I should also mention that if there was a blown head gasket causing this then it would be on the #4 plug on the opposite, rear plug. I just can't fathom that a blown head gasket would cause this amount of water to dump into the pan. It's a stream as if you turned your sink faucet on about 1/3 of the way. Its stream is literally like the photo
I'm attaching. I ran the water through the thermostat "housing" with the oil drain plug out and it produced a stream like this???
Thanks, Crazy
Mar 26, 2024 at 12:03 PM
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JACOBANDNICKOLAS
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Hi,

If it is coming in that fast, I have a feeling the block may be cracked. I had one a few years ago that had a hole rusted through in one of the coolant channel right where pressure is direct from the water pump.

Check closely for any internal damage to the block. If you can't see anything, I don't want to say it, but the oil pan will need removed to see where the coolant is entering from.

With the pump removed, inspect internally for cracks or rust issues.

Let me know.

Joe

See pic below.
Mar 26, 2024 at 1:17 PM
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JACOBANDNICKOLAS
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Also, just to confirm. Did you check at the oil cooler, where it attaches to the block? See pics below.

Joe
Mar 26, 2024 at 1:41 PM
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SWILSON3828
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Hi, a bunch of corrosion at the water pump. I inspected it as best as I could and could find any visible holes. The oil cooler. I also checked that as best I could but have not removed it. With the filter off, no water comes out of the oil filter hole. I read on a forum somewhere that some early 4.6 engines had a ruptured manifold crossover that caused this. I know what a manifold is, but I'm not certain what is meant by "crossover" they mentioned that this was covered under warranty but very few found out about the issue until after the warranty expired. Just random talk in a Ford forum. Nothing from a seasoned mechanic.
Thanks
Mar 26, 2024 at 9:35 PM
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JACOBANDNICKOLAS
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Hi,

I don't believe the crossover was used on this truck. Try this: pinch off both coolant hoses at the cooler and see if oil still enters.

We may need to remove the oil pan to see where it is coming from.

Let me know.

Joe

See pic below.
Mar 27, 2024 at 10:57 AM
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SWILSON3828
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Hi. I didn't get the chance to pinch off the oil cooler hoses today because of the weather, but I'll do it tomorrow. In the meantime, I was looking for used motors in case I need to change the motor. I know my 1997 is a 4.6L Windsor, but evidentially the 97 Windsor's could have either a 6-bolt flywheel or an 8-bolt flywheel? If I may ask, how am I supposed to know which? Mine has a manual transmission if that makes a difference. Thanks
Mar 28, 2024 at 12:53 PM
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JACOBANDNICKOLAS
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Hi,

I tried looking for OEM part numbers related to the flywheel. You are correct. There are two different ones.

I can't guarantee it, but if you give me the VIN, I can look up your specific vehicle to see if there is specific information. I suspect because it is a manual transmission, it is the 8 bolt, but I can't be sure. You may have to remove the transmission so you can see it.

Let me know.

Joe

See pic below.
Mar 28, 2024 at 1:09 PM
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SWILSON3828
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Hi,

The VIX is 1FTDX1860VNA40830
Engine part number is 6G871AA
Production date 3/96
Evidentially the 6 bolt flywheels were in the early produced 4.6 Windsor engines and then at some point during the production year they were superseded by the 8 bolt flywheels on the Windsor 4.6.. I think the Romeo engines are strictly 8 bolt flywheels for the 4.6.
If my truck is a 1997 model and the truck was produced in 3/96 then I would think that would be one of the earlier produced Windsor engines although I don't know for certain. Thanks
Mar 29, 2024 at 3:11 AM
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SWILSON3828
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Also, if I may ask, what would one have to do to be able to swap out an engine with an 8-bolt flywheel pattern from one that has a 6-bolt flywheel pattern and vice versa? I know the engines are identical other than the flywheel bolt pattern. Thanks
Mar 29, 2024 at 3:50 AM
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SWILSON3828
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Good afternoon. Hope you had a nice holiday with your family. it's virtually impossible to reach the hoses that connect to the oil cooler to pinch them off so I'm guessing I'm going to have to remove the oil pan. also I've located another motor same yesr, description, same 8th digit VIN number.... the only difference is that my truck is a four-wheel drive manual and the donor truck is a two-wheel drive manual, yet when looking at the picture of the donor truck the oil filter is pointing down, or perpendicular to the ground whereas the oil filter on my engine is pointing to the side, or parallel to the ground. would you happen to be familiar with this? Supposedly the engines are the exact same except for the fact that one flywheel might have eight bolts and another 6 bolts. Thanks
Apr 1, 2024 at 7:04 AM
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JACOBANDNICKOLAS
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As far as the oil filter is concerned, you should be able to use the housing from your engine and install it on the new one. In addition to the oil filter orientation, make sure to check the oil pan depth. One may be deeper than the other.

Joe,

Thanks for the Easter wishes. I hope you had a good one as well. Mine was spent in bed sick. LOL
Apr 1, 2024 at 8:50 AM
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SWILSON3828
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Terrible. Hope you feel better.
Apr 1, 2024 at 9:57 AM
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SWILSON3828
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Good morning.
Evidentially some 1997 4.6 Windsor engines come with an oil cooler, and some without an oil cooler. My truck has an oil cooler, but the engine I'm looking at, based on the pictures, do not have an oil cooler. The VIN number's 8th digit matches. The oil pans, from what I've gathered, are the same. Amazed there are so many little differences in these engines that are supposed to be the same. Any idea if the engines without the oil cooler would be able to be swapped out for an engine with an oil cooler? Thanks
My VIN 1FTDX1860VNA40830
Donor engine VIN 1FTDX1761VNB31784
Apr 2, 2024 at 1:02 AM
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SWILSON3828
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Sorry, bad pic of non oil cooler.
Apr 2, 2024 at 2:30 AM
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JACOBANDNICKOLAS
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I'm almost afraid to answer. LOL In theory, you should be able to remove one and install the other. The orientation of the filter between the two will be different, but if you reuse the original one, it should be in the correct place for the vehicle.

I tried to zoom in on the base where it mounts. They appear to be the same. Is that correct or am I missing something?

Joe
Apr 2, 2024 at 3:37 AM
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SWILSON3828
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Yes, I got the same impression. If I may ask how difficult is it to remove the oil cooler housing? I really just want to take a look in the inside of the housing before I spring for a replacement motor. Just a gut feeling that that may reveal the source of the issue I'm having. Thanks
Apr 2, 2024 at 4:58 AM
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