Ignition trouble

Rusty Mccrumbles meet "Mr. Jeep" (1977 258) and his big brother "Willy" ("46 134).

Pictures below.

They will be assisting you until you are back on your wheels.

I have many pictures/diagrams of Mr. Jeeps goodies, I might even link you to other answers I have given.

I think you are sort of on a right track with the 1979 set up. I upgraded mine to that system (Motorcraft). Prestolite (1977 system) has many crappy problems, mainly with the distributor. It is easy to break bell wire feed, spring breakage on the mechanical advance weights, time and heat destroying the vacuum advance bellows. I had enough of that every time I turned around!

The 258 is the best engine coupled with a Jeep!

I can help you, if you can understand my stuff.

I have answered several CJ's whereas the thread ran with over one hundred responses and even over months time.

Let me know if you want to pull into my garage, I am here for the long haul, are you?

Answering CJ's is my most favorite pass time on 2CarPros.

Last question.

Do you really love your Jeep?

The Medic

Cannot help but love it, on bald shoes and bone stock it is up for any trail i have thrown at it, and when it runs it runs better than both both of the TJ's i have had. When i got my first TJ i knew i would only drive jeeps forever, but i was really impressed when i drove my CJ, it is easily the most fun. The first time this happened it was the red wire falling off the resister, then the resister went bad so i spent a couple months thinking i had a loose wire somewhere. I had a not so smart friend start ripping at wires one day saying i do not need it but it still ran. Also, i cannot remember where the wires from the heater relay went, but the blue and white wires in the book that go to the distributor were taped off not being used, so the original owner has done something, i am just not sure what. From the resister it looks like it should go to the splice for coil, then to the starter relay. I am really not sure though because every diagram i look at is half different because of what i have. Advance Auto sold me the gold module, and the coil is for external resister. I was reading one of your posts about a Holley four barrel (off subject) at Advance Auto. i have asked several times for a replacement and they say it has to be ordered from Jeep factory, but first things first. thank you for helping.

Want to go for the Motorcraft system?

I really recommend it, but it is up to you.

Sending you a link as to what will be involved (pretty simple)(looks complicated!).

This will give you an idea of the parts (mostly wires and connectors) you will need.

Some of the links you will come across are old and expired.

https://www.2carpros.com/questions/ignition-problem-75208814

Once you are ready, I will try to tell you what wires you will need to hook this up. Mainly the two wires that will feed the new 1979 ignition module.

I think you mentioned this.

Below is a diagram of the solenoid

Picture one, this is how it looks originally.

Picture two, this works too, mine are like this, swapping the big posts' wiring (starter is still by itself, just on the opposite post).

The solenoid do not care which big post is used, as long as it is a mirror image the original.

"S" and "I" must remain the same!

I do this so that I can "bump" (key off) or "start" (key on) the Jeep at the solenoid with a screwdriver picture three (should I not have my remote starter handy picture four).

This puts "hot" right beside "S".

This comes in handy at times, such as the day a stick jumped up and popped my fan belt off. I was by myself with only a screwdriver.

I was able to stretch the belt most of the way over the water pump pulley and held it tight in place with another stick. Then I bumped the engine (key off) with the screwdriver. Presto! The belt jumped on!

Let me know where to start, any questions?

Do you have any doubt to whether you installed the distributor correctly?

Has it actually ran with what you have now?

The Medic

I just re-read everything that you sent links, i paid better attention because i realized i am not just scanning random threads for something to stand out, it is for sure specific to my Jeep. So thanks! I am ordering another module and coil and a connector, is it possible to hard wire or solder the module to distributor? Or do I for sure need a connector?

Yes, you can hard wire the connections.

Yes, chopping connectors off will probably void warranties.

I really try to keep things consistent if I can, The entire system becomes a 1979, no improvising/making do/rigging.

If I need any ignition part now (maintenance), I tell them at the parts store that I have a 1979 CJ-5 (no need in confusing them!).

There is only the one part that was needed to make it work that is not 1979.

That would be the "ballast resister". The 1979 has a resistance wire to the coil, the 1977 does not. The ballast resistor sorta converts it (coil wire) to be like a 1979.



Insure the distributor is perfect, giving you a review on how to do it correctly.

Each post has a date at the bottom.

Stop when you get to: (in link below)

Thursday September 25th, 2014 AT 8:04 PM

https://www.2carpros.com/questions/1978-jeep-cj5-engine-wont-start/page/3

I am here to assist in any way, shape, or form/ misunderstandings (mine or yours)/ why's plus hows/diagrams and pictures/maybe a different approach.

You just throw me a response on this thread, keep me posted as to your progress. Send pictures if need be.

The Medic

Okay, I ordered the module and coil last night, and coil connector so that connector for the module to distributor. What would that be called in their computer? Just trying to do it all the right way this time.

Sort of the easiest way I could do this.

The first two items are what is needed

The first is to the distributor. (one of the wires is a piggyback, it is not used)

The second is for the module output.

https://www.carid.com/ignition-control-module-connectors/

I cannot find the connector for the input side of the module (it will have only two wires) This might be something to get at an auto salvage yard.

The correct way to disconnect this connections is to grasp the wires on either side and pull!

I took my diagram and sort of stripped away the stuff in your way.

I also labeled areas of the wiring with green capital letters so you can reference the area back to me that you may be having problems with.

Let me know where you need assistance.

Were you searching for a carburetor or am I confusing you with another Jeep?

The Medic

Yes I will need a carburetor, the Jeep was running pretty good but the carburetor is old, and I lost the spring on the driver side screw.
And tried setting the choke (the day the coil ruptured) so I would rather get a new one. I asked Advance Auto and they said if they could even get one it would be factory order and take forever. I drove my Jeep everyday, it is making me miserable for it to be parked, so thanks again for helping. I had almost given up. Cannot wait until the parts come in!

Get me straight here.

One barrel intake?

One barrel Carter YF ?

I will soon be your second best friend, but of course, Rusty Mccrumbles will still be your first.

The Medic

I finally got all the parts in the mail, it is raining and miserable cold but I am going to install everything today, should be dry enough in the carport. I am pretty sure the carburetor says Weber, but looks like one barrel. It has a rectangle shaped air filter that is held on by snaps.

Send several pictures of carburetor/ intake, some with breather off.

The Medic

Mr. Medevac? I have had these parts (new coil, module, resistor, distributor since our last message and I still cannot get this thing to run. The only thing I have not been able to find is the wiring harnesses for the module and distributor. Can you please tell me how to solder them to make it run? My brain hurts from information overload! I just cannot get it. I even put a new starter and ignition switch to make sure everything was new. I have a toggle and a button I will be starting it with because my key stripped out the plastic gear and I cannot find one of them either. So can you tell me the series of wires from switch to toggle to coil, distributor module? Please sir, just the bare minimum to make it run.

Is the engine cranking over? or is it cranking over and not starting?

Here is a guide to help us start from scratch:

https://www.2carpros.com/articles/car-cranks-but-wont-start

Please run down this guide and report back.

Cheers, Ken

You have everything discussed to upgrade this to being like a 1979's Motorcraft system?

I have got to make some pictures and do some behind the scenes work to get the rest of this to you!

Please be patient, I will not forget about you!

I assume the key will go to the "on" position as it used to, to power everything up. If not, let me know the situation.

I worked this up. It should give you something to do for a bit.

If you do not understand something, let me know.

This will be the easiest was to "crank" the starter over.

Remember the post goodies can be swapped (if desired) Yours may be opposite of this diagram (which is fine). All accessories and the feed for the momentary switch stay with the battery cable side.

The starter cable will always be on a post by itself.

See my beautiful diagram below.

I will catch you up on the other stuff soon.

The Medic

Man, am I glad to see this! I will get you pictures of the current wiring catastrophe. I can move the slide thing with teeth to the on position but it kept getting harder to do, I think something in the column has a sweet spot now that I cannot make happen every time. But I did but some toggle switches and a button. But there is a noticeable position where it stops every time, the sweet spot just made the dash brighter if that makes any sense, it is all I noticed it do. My wiring job ended like this out of desperation trying different combinations because the diagrams I was going off of were different from each other and I just got more confused.
Thanks for showing up I am not ready to give up! Out of the three Jeeps in my yard the CJ5 is my favorite and runs better than the others when it starts. Pictures coming soon.

Nice, let us know what happens.

Alrighty then!

The reason I started answering on here years ago was I noticed that the Jeep CJ's (and other vehicles) were receiving vague/short and sweet/very technical answers. If I were a bit younger and more vehicle ignorant, I would have been mega lost and probably would have stopped replying just as they did.

So, my goal was to give all the information I could/ pictures (if possible) and have the patience to get my information through even the hardest of heads! Back then, I had no typing experience and had never tackled a home computer system ever. I want you to be running, have more Jeep knowledge with more "fix it ability", and lastly, you considering CJ MEDEVAC to be your new Jeep Buddy.

Being that I need outside help to get you going on this upgrade, I may be stepping out of bounds to get you this great information (I believe this may be one of your weakness'?).

Unless you are familiar with soldering, this is the next best thing you can do. It is fast and easy and is done most of the time. Some of the steps are good, but really not necessary.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LBZR_XiEnk

Butt splicing-that is the ticket.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVS1ynJqJmM

You are now ready to jump on this.

Your new module needs to be bolted down so that it grounds.

You may have to go back and forth between diagrams to get better views.

1) This is the upgrade like a 1979 - it must be connected exactly like this.

2) Lots of time making this (may be hard to see?). This is a partial 1977 diagram showing you where to tie in the feed wires for the '1979 system.

3) "Willy" (Restored in 1993) With a new 2017 paint job and insignia.

4) One of "Willy's" brothers in WWII, yep even now, 72 years later, I find those magnets stuck to mine when I get back out in the parking lot!

I did not show the 1979 coil connector being tied onto the old 1977 coil wires. If it is not clear as to what to do, let me know, I will fix you up.

Once we get it running, we will tune it up to get it all back to its correct settings.

Let's see some progress, or ask away, that is what I am here for.

The Medic

Thank you sir! Just glanced at the new diagram and it looks like exactly what I need. I will get out there today and see how it compares, and get you some pictures.

The Medic is our Jeep expert! Please let us know what happens.

Cheers, Ken

Thanks!

You got her February first.

No telling how long it was down before that.

It is now June fourth.

That is way too long not to be riding in your Jeep!

We need to hear those crimpers doing some clicking!

If you hit an obstacle, You will find me here usually after 1800 hours. EST.

No doubts on this end, we will get her going!

The Medic

Is it possible to install or wire the external resistor backwards? I finished wiring all this and it does a thunk, thunk, then really squeaky turns over with not much conviction then stops, then thunk, thunk, every time I bump the starter. And the solenoid was smoking where the red wire ties on to the "i". When this happened I disconnected the battery and stopped messing with it.

And there are a red, black, and green wire from the aftermarket tachometer, red and black having power. Should I tie them in to something?

Resistor can go either direction.

Recheck your wiring. Should not smoke!

It ties in between the coil and its power source.

"I" comes off of "I" (embossed on the solenoid) and basically ties onto the positive side of the coil (or a few inches back) on the wire between the positive coil wire and the resistor. In my diagram, it looks like a "Tee"

We will deal with the tachometer after we are running, do you have instructions for it?

Can you send pictures of what you have done so far?

This "thunk" sound is the engine trying to crank/ start? Or is it something else making the noise?

I cropped this from an earlier picture.

The Medic

Yes, the thunk is the motor not turning. I get a few thunks then it will turn maybe half a turn. And when it does turn it makes a high pitch sound it is hard to explain. But it made me instinctively check the oil and also pull the new distributor out and put the old one back in, and it still does the exact same thing. Update, this evening I bought another new solenoid and got home, tried the old one again because the wiring looked right, and it kept throwing sparks while I was turning the screwdriver in the column, so my wife assisted in pinpointing and it was the starter wire. Looks like it was grounding itself on the solenoid mount bolt. Half the wire was hot and some melted. But the way it was sitting looks to have been grounding as described. Is that the only wire to the starter? I replaced it when I got the new starter, but the most frustrating part of all this is that I had a friend here last summer and he was with me when it shut off. I am pretty sure he tried working on it while I was at my regular job, and I have no idea what he may have done. I remember him grabbing a handful of wires and saying "you do not need all this" one night when he was drunk but I thought I had fixed all that. The high pitch noise is new though, it turned over fine (without spark) until I swapped to the new distributor. And honestly I had no idea what I was doing. Figured any information I can remember might help you help me.

I had to edit this a little, my first two pictures did not show up when I submitted, they will probably wind up as the last two, I am sure you will figure it out.

This is how you replace a distributor. I am going to show you the way I do it, then give you a couple of links of someone else explaining and showing. (You might see why I do it in slow motion)

Xdistributor (this word helps me search for this quickly, if I need to copy and paste some or all of this to someone else!)

Using the starter to bump the engine to find the compression stroke works fine with a seasoned auto guy. It is too easy to "overrun" your stroke and not realize it if you are not familiar with the procedure.

Let's do it in slow motion, it is more accurate in my opinion.

Hide your keys, chock your wheels, put the transmission in neutral.

Remove number one spark plug.

Stick it back in and only screw it in barely by two threads. This will allow compression to "hiss" by it (some remove the plug and stick their thumb in the hole - this scares folks!).

Remove spark plug number one.

From the front, a CJ's engine turns clockwise when running, this is how we will turn it "by hand" using a ratchet or wrench on the harmonic balancer bolt (picture number one below).

As you rotate (being this is a four stroke engine, you may have to turn two full revolutions to find the compression stroke) eventually you will hear a "louder" hiss from the loose number one plug. (you may hear faint hisses from the other cylinder leaking past the rings)

Stop!

You are at the beginning of the compression stroke.

Number one piston is still coming up on this stroke, our goal is to get it to the top. This is called "top dead center" or TDC.

Ever so slowly continue to rotate CW, until your timing mark is on "zero". This will be less than a half a turn from where you heard the hiss (white chalk in groove is lined up with "zero"(if more than half a turn, start over!) (See my picture number two)

If you miss the stroke or pass your marks, and then hit your marks (you are most likely on the exhaust stroke (it will not hiss). The other "up stroke", 180 degrees off. Start over, we want TDC!

Back to slow motion, our timing line is on zero, we should be dead on TDC.

Take off your distributor cap, look at the rotor button, is it pointing to where number one spark plug wire is located?

(This really does not matter as long as you put number one spark plug wire at that location and then follow the firing order sequence in a clockwise manner from that point on.)

I like to arrange mine as it is shown in diagrams (textbook)(later on in time, using the diagram would get you right if the wires were all removed).

While at TDC, (not moving the crank at all!) you can remove or pick up the distributor out of the cam gear, rotate the rotor button to the desired position and sit it back down. Remember when it engages the cam gear it will "twist" a little. Allow for the twist!

To go along with this, the oil pump drive is on the flat screwdriver end of the distributor shaft. It is a big slot (look into the distributor hole).

If you move the rotor button. You will also have to use a flat screwdriver to move the oil pump shaft a little so that the end of the distributor will go into that slot. Otherwise the distributor will not sit all of the way down! Sometimes this is tricky, Do not force it! Small "tweaks" will finally let it sit down, remember the "twisting action' as you drop it in might fool you as to which way to face the oil pump slot!

The 258 firing order (plug wires) is 1-5-3-6-2-4.

Below, third picture is textbook distributor set up. (Note the mark, where the rotor button should point when trying to stay "textbook")

After the distributor has been installed or even loosened and moved, you will need to use a timing light and a dwell/tachometer to set you timing perfect, the TDC deal is to get the valve train timed with the distributor, it may get it to run or run enough to time it by ear, it does not do your "final" timing setting.

You will need a timing light and a dwell/tachometer (or similar ones to mine). Many times these are considered "dinosaurs" and can be found real cheap at a pawn shop/flea market/ etc. See last picture.

When you get to this point, I can help you tweak in the distributor and carburetor final adjustments. I have more CJ fix pictures!

Here is a review on finding TDC and installing the distributor.

CLASS 1


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5a2X9mSSlQY

CLASS 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=FHX1yXVyIMg&feature=endscreen



Your turn,

The Medic