Not starting

Tiny
KASEKENNY
  • MECHANIC
  • 18,907 POSTS
It has been a long time since I had one of these engines apart, so I don't remember if the sensor is inside the valve cover or not.

Normally these are on the dry side but based on this diagram it looks like it is inside the engine so it would have oil around it.

Monitoring the pattern would be the way we need to check its operation.

So, when it is cranking, we need to know if the sensor is sending a good pattern. If you don't have any codes for the cam sensor then it is most likely not the issue.
Was this
answer
helpful?
Yes
No
Sunday, December 5th, 2021 AT 6:40 PM
Tiny
BOBBY BASS
  • MEMBER
  • 27 POSTS
Okay. More info. I attached a photo of the camshaft position sensor. It's not quite like the one in the diagram. It looks like it's mounted on the outside. So, does that mean it should be dry? It looks like there's two bolts holding that housing on, but I don't want to pull it if there's something in there I might mess up. What do you think?
Also, my test light does not work on 5v, just tried. And my multimeter is had to tell if the sensor is pulsing or not because the numbers are changing to fast.
In other news, the motor almost started trying to test if the sensor was pulsing. I told the wife to try it again and give it a few quick taps on the gas pedal, and it started. It ran fine. A few things, I was messing around with the wiring harness going to the cam sensor. Maybe a bad wire? Maybe the oil in with the cam sensor is messing with the signal and its a intermediate issue and I just got lucky? And lastly. The other day when it wouldn't start it was - 5 Celsius and today it's +5 Celsius. Maybe the cold made something contract and cause a bad connection issue?
In any case, as of right now I'm not comfortable driving it any distance in case it won't start again when I'm away from home.
Was this
answer
helpful?
Yes
No
Monday, December 6th, 2021 AT 3:49 PM
Tiny
BOBBY BASS
  • MEMBER
  • 27 POSTS
Oh, and if it's potentially a coldness issue, the car didn't just not start because it was cold period. I had no spark, injector pulse, or tach signal also while turning over.
Was this
answer
helpful?
Yes
No
Monday, December 6th, 2021 AT 3:54 PM
Tiny
KASEKENNY
  • MECHANIC
  • 18,907 POSTS
Okay. I think we need to track down the wiring issue. We do this by a wiggle test.

Basically, if it is not starting, start moving the harness around gently until it starts.

If it is running, then it should stay running even if you lose the cam sensor. If you lose the crank then the engine will cut off however, it you have cam and then loose it then it will still run off the crank.

So that means to find the issue we need to have it not running and then move the harness and have it start up.

As for the signal, you will need a labscope to see the pattern, but I suspect you have found the issue but now it is just a matter of tracking it down, or just run new wires and eliminate the possibility of a wiring issue all together.
Was this
answer
helpful?
Yes
No
Tuesday, December 7th, 2021 AT 11:37 AM
Tiny
BOBBY BASS
  • MEMBER
  • 27 POSTS
It's been a while, but I've been so busy at work it was leaving me no time with the car. But I did figure it out, wiring was good. It was a spread open connector in the plug, it would start when it was warm out but when the outside temperatures dropped below 0 c it wouldn't start, no spark, no pulse, no tachometer. The cold must have made the bad connection contract just enough that there was no contact. Depin, repin and she's good now.
Thanks for the help. And happy holidays!
Was this
answer
helpful?
Yes
No
Friday, December 24th, 2021 AT 4:54 AM
Tiny
KASEKENNY
  • MECHANIC
  • 18,907 POSTS
That is great info and those are the hardest issues to find because most people forget about the terminals.

Thanks so much for coming back to update us. That will surely help others.
Was this
answer
helpful?
Yes
No
Friday, December 24th, 2021 AT 7:00 AM
Tiny
BOBBY BASS
  • MEMBER
  • 27 POSTS
Happy new year!
New year, new problem!
I started having starting issues again. Haha sounds funny like that.
But seriously, so I started checking things, I was really stumped, but I was having multiple issues at the same time so that made diagnosing tough. But I figured out I needed a new crank sensor again, because I lost rpm signal when cranking. The first one I bought was just a cheap one. This time I got a good one. But still, it wouldn't start. So, checking spark I realized my spark was weak looking. My brand-new plugs are looking pretty black. So I'm running rich? So tonight, I brake cleaned and brass brushed my plugs to look new again, hooked everything back up, no start. So, I pulled relay 2 for the fuel pump. So, I have no fuel pumping at all, and I sprayed starting fluid in the intake tube while my wife was cranking it over, and it started and ran while I was spraying the fluid. But it won't run on fuel. And it is definitely getting fuel, because if I pull the 4 plugs and turn it over you can see it spraying out the plug holes, plus when I try to start the car and it won't start, if I pull the plugs they will be soaked in gas, it just floods out and won't start. Also, as mentioned earlier the plugs got really back after a short time of running the car, suggesting it's been running rich.
The plugs are gapped to spec according to the manual. Is it possible I'm just getting too much fuel, and what would cause this? The fuel pressure regulator was already mentioned before here. Would it be at fault? It's in the fuel tank as it's a return less fuel system.
Or is there any other issue that could be causing this?
Was this
answer
helpful?
Yes
No
Wednesday, January 26th, 2022 AT 2:19 PM
Tiny
KASEKENNY
  • MECHANIC
  • 18,907 POSTS
Very interesting.

So, this means we have a fuel issue, and we need to narrow that down. The issue is either the fuel pressure is too high and when the injectors open it sprays way too much fuel.

Or the injectors are sticking open causing them to flood the engine.

The other possible cause of this is the fuel is old and can no longer start the engine. So just make sure this is good clean fuel that is relatively new.

So, this means we need to start with the fuel pressure and find out where to go next.

https://www.2carpros.com/articles/how-to-check-fuel-system-pressure-and-regulator

Let me know what you find with this, and we can go from there. Thanks
Was this
answer
helpful?
Yes
No
Wednesday, January 26th, 2022 AT 3:45 PM
Tiny
BOBBY BASS
  • MEMBER
  • 27 POSTS
Weird, I had replied to this yesterday, but it seems to have not gone through.

Okay, fuel, it's definitely fresh fuel.
Fuel pressure is 48/49 PSI.
The injectors I had out of the car a couple months ago when I was trouble shooting issues as well. They all sprayed well, and they all worked properly and were all cleaned at the same time.

A friend of a friend had just recommended that I change the coolant temperature sensor. He said if it failed or is giving a false very cold reading that the ecu will send more fuel for a cold start and that coul be the flooding issue. He also told me to get new plugs, as cleaning them after they have fouled will still produce a weak spark. That accompanying too much fuel and boom, no start.

Does this sound plausible? CTS is cheap enough to try it, I guess.
Was this
answer
helpful?
Yes
No
Friday, January 28th, 2022 AT 1:28 AM
Tiny
KASEKENNY
  • MECHANIC
  • 18,907 POSTS
It is possible that the coolant temperature sensor is causing an issue, but this is normally after the engine is warmed up.

The reason is, if the temperature sensor is reading cold then the engine would run well when it is actually cold but then after it warms up it would still be reading cold, and the engine would start to run poorly.

However, you have a no start issue and the PCM does not use the ECT during start up. There is a predetermined amount of fuel used for all starting functions. The temperature sensor is used once the engine is started and running to determine when to switch to closed loop.

The plugs make more sense as once they are fouled, they tend to not recover so I would go with that theory.

However, if the engine starts and runs on a different fuel source then the plugs are not causing the no start. They may still need to be changed but we still have to figure out why you have a flooding condition going on.

The fuel pressure should be about 47 PSI so that looks perfect.

However, this does not rule out an injector leaking so check the fuel pressure again and let's watch the gauge after you shut the key off.

So, turn the key on and even crank the engine and watch what the pressure does.

Then shut the key off and tell me what the pressure does up to 5 minutes after the key is off. It should drop some but if it drops below 30 PSI then more than likely the injectors are leaking, or the regulator is the issue.

Can you get a video of the gauge if it drops at all?
Was this
answer
helpful?
Yes
No
Friday, January 28th, 2022 AT 6:27 AM
Tiny
BOBBY BASS
  • MEMBER
  • 27 POSTS
Okay, so, I picked up a coolant temperature sensor yesterday anyway just because it was cheap and in stock at the local part store. No change.

I hooked up the gauge to the fuel line again. I have a video I attached up above in the chat here. It did the exact same as that video. The needle is around 48ish psi, it drops to 42 PSI as soon as I stop cranking the engine. And after 5 minutes it dropped to 40 PSI.

Also, the plugs, I was unable to get new plugs, the local store didn't have the NGKs in stock, I'll have to order them next week. My current plugs though, I've noticed that the gap was smaller than I set them. The manual calls for.028 to.031 I had them gapped to.030 but when I rechecked now they were all around.023 I don't know if that's enough to cause issues, and I assume that's from dropping them in the holes, but from now on I'm going to gap them and insert them with the plug socket so the gap has no chance of being affected by dropping them in.
The car would still not start with them gapped right, but I'd still like to get some new NGKs to absolutely rule out the plugs as an issue.
Was this
answer
helpful?
Yes
No
Saturday, January 29th, 2022 AT 10:23 AM
Tiny
KASEKENNY
  • MECHANIC
  • 18,907 POSTS
Have you cranked the engine and then pulled the plugs to check if the injectors are actually firing?

Clearly if this is running off of an outside fuel source then you have a fuel delivery issue, and the ignition system is fine.

I understand you checked the injectors outside the vehicle, but we need to find out why it will not fire off of the fuel in the vehicle.

Have you tried leaving the injectors enabled and use a spray in the intake and see if it fires? If it does then you have no fuel delivery.

This would make sense as to why the pressure drops as soon as you stop cranking.

You can also check this by using this guide to find out if the injectors are pulsing.

https://www.2carpros.com/articles/how-to-test-a-fuel-injector

Basically, we need to get more serious on the fuel side and find out why it will run on brake cleaner but not the fuel system.

Thanks
Was this
answer
helpful?
Yes
No
Saturday, January 29th, 2022 AT 1:45 PM
Tiny
BOBBY BASS
  • MEMBER
  • 27 POSTS
Yes, if I pull all 4 spark plugs out and crank the engine over you can see fuel shooting out the cylinders. I also have a stethoscope and can hear the injectors firing.

Also, after a failed attempt at trying to start the car, if I pull the plugs to inspect, they are soaked in gas.

Oh, and if I spray in the intake while the fuel system is enabled it will not start. It bucks a little bit but will not start. The spray only works if the fuel system is disabled.

I believe I'm getting too much fuel and its flooding, soaking the plugs. But why? Are the plugs too weak to ignite the fuel, but good enough to ignite the ether in the start fluid spay?

I think I need new plugs next possibly. But I'm not sure.
Oh, and I can add, I tried a known working ECU and it's the same results, no change. They are plug and play, no immobilizer.
Was this
answer
helpful?
Yes
No
Saturday, January 29th, 2022 AT 3:42 PM
Tiny
KASEKENNY
  • MECHANIC
  • 18,907 POSTS
Okay. That is good.

So, what will cause the engine to flood are high fuel pressure, faulty regulator, leaking injectors, weak spark plugs, or ECM.

So, we have crossed most of these off the list. However, let's just do a clear flood start to get more evidence.

You hold the accelerator to the floor and crank the engine. This will cut the injectors and introduce more air and it should start.

Clearly this doesn't solve the issue, but it confirms the over fueling which means we need to replace the regulator and injectors. However, if you were checking the pressure from the injector side of the regulator then it is fine.
Was this
answer
helpful?
Yes
No
Saturday, January 29th, 2022 AT 4:13 PM
Tiny
BOBBY BASS
  • MEMBER
  • 27 POSTS
The regulator is in the tank with the fuel pump as it's a return less system. And I put my pressure gauge right before the fuel rail.

This morning I went out to the car, the gauge dropped to 18psi but that's overnight. Is that okay? After 5 minutes it only dropped to 38.

I also tried the clear flood start while I was out there, it did not start. But I feel like I should replace the spark plugs to give this test a fair chance. I should be able to get new plugs this week.
I feel the ether spray will ignite with the potentially weak spark where the gasoline may not, possibly?

I did not check the plugs after the clear start test, but any other time after a failed start when I checked the plugs they were soaked in gas.
Was this
answer
helpful?
Yes
No
Sunday, January 30th, 2022 AT 6:53 AM
Tiny
KASEKENNY
  • MECHANIC
  • 18,907 POSTS
Okay. I think we are narrowing this down. I thought it was on the rail, but you are correct.

So, if the pressure drops to 38 after 5 minutes that is okay if it is the regulator that is causing the pressure to drop.

However, if that is coming through the injectors then that is the issue.

I fully expect that we have leaking injectors because that is what makes the most sense.

When you removed the plugs, were all of them soaked? I agree that a weak spark would cause this so if your plan is to change the plugs then let us know what happens.

Thanks
Was this
answer
helpful?
Yes
No
Sunday, January 30th, 2022 AT 9:32 AM
Tiny
BOBBY BASS
  • MEMBER
  • 27 POSTS
Okay, so I messed with the car today. I got the proper NGK 3656 plugs. I had the Autolite equivalent in it before. The NGKs are the OEM plug, and I've read mixed reviews online that only the NGKs work proper in these motors. Nowhere had them in stock so I originally got the Autolite's. But now I ordered the NGK 3656 plug, and they are installed.

After installing the plugs, there was no change. All 4 plugs came out soaked in gas after trying to start it.

Now, I tried this already a few nights ago, it would start on ether spray alone, but not on the spray with the fuel system running as well.
But tonight, I tried the spray in the intake for fun with the fuel on and it started and continued to run. It ran rough and backfired a lot though. I didn't let it run for long like this. It seemed to idle not too bad but backfired and wanted to stall when giving it throttle.

I again checked for spark; they spark beautifully now. I also tested the injector plugs for pulse with a test light. I tested for pulse with all 4 unplugged and again after plugging in one at a time to rule out one possibly shorting out, I never lost pulse no matter which one was being tested while the rest were plugged in.

So that's where I am now. So why the backfiring and rough running? I'm guessing it's running rich. It needs the ether to get started, it just ignites easier I guess and gets it going. Once it starts it stays running. Without the spray the plugs drowned in gas.

The last time I had the car running it did run rough when it first started, I just assumed it was because I hadn't run it in a bit, after it warmed up it a great without backfiring. This was probably a month ago or so. But I'm thinking that backfiring isn't just because it's been a while since it ran. Also, those Autolite plugs got really black after just a short time of the car running a month ago as well. Indicating a rich condition.

Where do I go from here? I had no DTC's before when it was running either.
Was this
answer
helpful?
Yes
No
Tuesday, February 1st, 2022 AT 4:42 PM
Tiny
BOBBY BASS
  • MEMBER
  • 27 POSTS
If I have a leaking injector there's not really a way to determine which one is leaking is there? Or would I have to replace them all?
But if only one was leaking would that cause a no start? It wouldn't run on 3 cylinders. All 4 plugs are getting wet.
Was this
answer
helpful?
Yes
No
Tuesday, February 1st, 2022 AT 4:47 PM
Tiny
BOBBY BASS
  • MEMBER
  • 27 POSTS
Just came outside this morning, fuel pressure is zero. Lost all pressure overnight. Is that normal or should it hold some pressure?
Was this
answer
helpful?
Yes
No
Wednesday, February 2nd, 2022 AT 7:06 AM
Tiny
KASEKENNY
  • MECHANIC
  • 18,907 POSTS
You are on it. It is unlikely that all 4 are leaking but that is what this seems like.

The backfiring at this point can be attributed to too much fuel.

It started this time with the starter fluid because you most likely had low pressure, so the starter fluid was the right amount of fuel.

If it were me, I would replace all the injectors before anything else.

Also, yes, it is not unlikely for the pressure to drop overnight so I would not worry about this. The test is the speed at which it drops. A leaking system will not hold the pressure as long as a sealed system but they both will lose pressure.
Was this
answer
helpful?
Yes
No
Wednesday, February 2nd, 2022 AT 11:13 AM

Please login or register to post a reply.

Sponsored links