Not starting

Oh, and I wanted to add, there are no DTC's upon scanning.

Okay. You have almost found the issue. We need to dig a little further on the fuel issue because you are correct that this is a fuel issue.

So, we need to start with checking the actual pressure. Here is a guide that will help with this:

https://www.2carpros.com/articles/how-to-check-fuel-system-pressure-and-regulator

Just because it can produce volume does not mean that the pump is able to build pressure.

Plus, this could also be an issue with another part of the system that is preventing the pressure from building like a faulty regulator or even leaking injectors.

I doubt it is a leaking injector because if you are adding more fuel in the intake and it starts then that shows a lack of fuel and a leaking injector would be introducing too much fuel.

So, I attached the process below on how to check the fuel pressure from the manual and I would start with this and if it is low then we have a fuel pump issue (even though it is new) or the regulator is stuck closed and not allowing the fuel into the injectors.

I was going to ask about fuel pressure but looks like Kasekenny1 is on it. Let us know what the pressure is.

Thanks for the info, Kenny.
Okay, I just tested the fuel pressure. The gauge was bouncing around 50PSI while cranking, and when you stop cranking it dropped to 41/42 PSI and held there.
So, I'm guessing fuel pressure isn't the problem.
Now, I tested the fuel injector plugs, but while all four are unplugged, they all have power, and they all show pulse on the negative side while cranking.
I pulled the injectors, applied fuel and pressure to each one individually via a can of carburetor cleaner and hoses to adapt it together. Applied 12v and ground, all 4 sprayed a nice pattern.
Is it possible that everything works individually but not when it's all hooked up together? I read that if one injector shorts then none will fire.
I'm thinking I'm going to pick up a mechanic stethoscope and see if I can hear the injectors pulsing while it's all hooked up and the engine is cranking over.
What do you think?

Another update: I just double checked that the injectors are getting power. They are receiving both while the key is on engine off, and they also get power while cranking.
I also double checked for pulse on the ground side and all four are getting pulse while cranking the engine over.
I then broke out my multimeter and tested each injector for amp draw. All four injectors draw .85 amps with 12v applied.
I do not have a stethoscope to listen to them during cranking though. It's hard to try to use a screwdriver when the engine is not running because it shakes more trying to crank it over.

Anything else I'm missing? Any idea which wire coming from the ECM is the injector pulse driver?

I also want to point out the obvious, yes there is definitely lots of gas in the tank. And it is not old.

Okay. Let's actually go back to your fuel pressure. When you say it was bouncing around 50 PSI and then immediately dropped to 41, that concerns me.

Your fuel pressure should be about 324 kPa or 46 PSI. Fuel pressure should not be bouncing because the pump creates a steady pressure that a PSI gauge does not pick up the pulses of the pump because they are so fast, and the gauge does not measure down to that low enough level.

So that means if you have slightly high pressure it points to a restriction. Add in the fact that when you stop cranking the pressure drops to a proper level and the fact that you add fuel to the intake and it starts and runs, it all means that I suspect the regulator is stuck closed.

Basically, the pump can only create about 50-52 PSI at max output. Due to the injectors opening and slightly relieving the pressure it remains around 45 PSI. However, if that fuel is not getting to the injectors, then the pressure will not be relieved and would remain around the pumps max output.

If it were me, I see enough info that I would replace the regulator and retest the operation.

Okay. And this is a return-less fuel system, so the fuel pressure regulator is in the tank with the pump. Local parts places don't have it in stock so I'm going to order it online. So, it will be about a week before I get it, I hand and be able to follow up here.

Actually, I'll do a short video of the gauge when I get home later and put it here if I can.

Sounds great. Thanks for the update. We will be here whenever you get back to us.

Here's a short video of the gauge.

Can you also provide a video on how you checked the injector pulse? As I am reading down the post you mentioned the injectors spray when you manually apply power and ground. To check the injector pulse a noid light would be the best tool to use but I would like to see how you're checking it without the noid light.

Does your vehicle have an immobilizer? Are there any type of security light flashing? If it has an immobilizer and the key is not recognized, then the injector pulse will be blocked if it does not recognize the key. If you can provide the video on the injector pulse and if there is any security light on that should give us a better idea of what is going on.

Okay I just checked. I see no security lights on the dash. And with key in and in the on position I waited a bit and no lights come on either. I read that a green key light will flash after 10 seconds of the key being on I there's an issue.

To check for pulse first I got my multimeter and tested a injector plug for power. The pin on the right gets 12v with key on and continues to get 12v while cranking. The pin on the left is the pulse signal, to test it I took my test light and put the alligator clip on the positive post of the battery and put the probe from the light in the left pin on the plug. When cranking the engine over my test light flashes. I tested all 4 plugs like this. I can do a video if you'd like.

Another note, I'm going out of town tomorrow and will be somewhere I can get a stethoscope, so tomorrow night I'll be able to listen to the injectors while everything is plugged in and see if they are in fact firing or not.

Great point JIS001.

If the theft light does not come on when turning the key on, then that is an issue.

However, I think the Evolution is the only one with the theft system.

We can check this to find out if you do by seeing if there is an immobilizer ECU. It should be behind the dash near the DLC which is the connector that you hook a scan tool too.

Take a look at the attachments below and let us know if you can see it.

I read in a few different places. Some say all Mitsubishis have immobilizers since 2000. Some places say only evos have them, and some places say some cars have it and some don't. So very mixed results.
I looked under the dash by the obd2 port. I can't see anything that jumps out at me. Unless I remove more panels to look deeper. In the diagram it looks like it's more under the HVAC/fan controls. I can pull those panels tomorrow too to look
But i also looked in the owner's manual and see no mention or an immobilizer or alarm system anywhere in the book.
I did get a stethoscope today, but the wife is not feeling like going out to the garage tonight to assist. So, I'll check that in the morning.

Sounds good. The picture is misleading, but it is going to be just over your right leg when sitting in the driver seat.

From what I can tell, the system was an option on most vehicles past 2000. So that means some may have it and some may not.

Today this is a standard system but back then, people could choose. Believe it or not, a lot of people didn't want the system and felt it was not trust worthy. They would prefer to just lock their doors and not worry about an "alarm system."

Let us know what happens. Thanks

Okay. Big update. I bought this car a few weeks ago in its none running state. The fuel pump wasn't getting power I was told, the owner replaced the fuel pump, not the issue.
Apon some research I replaced the cam and crank sensor. One may have been bad. When I was testing for power, it was just key on engine off. But after more research I found out these cars don't prime first; the pump only runs when the engine is cranking. So, if the other owner wasn't getting power maybe he thought it should prime as well? But if he actually wasn't getting power, one of those sensors likely fixed the issue.
So now, I tested for spark, all 4 sparked fine, but I used a spark tester to check for spark.
I just used my stethoscope; all injectors are firing. I was ready to message here and say what do I do now, must be fuel pressure. But first, I decided just for fun, I'm going to pull the 4 plugs and test them for spark without the tester, just spark plug against ground. First 2 I check were good. Second 2 had bad to no spark. I had 2 old plugs kicking around that fit, they sparked good. Put it all back together, crossed my fingers, wife pushed the clutch and turned the key.
The old girl fired right up.
Why it started when I used the starter fluid before is a mystery. But she's running now!

Going to get four new plugs for it tomorrow.
Thanks so much you guys for helping me out.
My new daily drivers going to be on the road soon. :)

Wow. That is great news. You are correct that we would have gone with a pump issue next so that is a great job.

Thanks for the update and let us know if you need other help in the future.

Thanks

So, you'll probably never believe this. After my last post. Bought four new plugs the day after. Installed them, car fired right up, ran, and sounded great. Let it run and drove it around the yard for almost an hour. It wasn't registered for the road yet at this point. I was waiting to get it running first.
So, three days later, car sat behind the house where I had parked it. I got the car registered at the DMV, got the plate, all good to go.
Day after that I decided I'm going to run it over to my friend's place who has a hoist, so I can get a good look underneath and check the ball joints, wheel bearings, tie rods etc. Just to make sure she's good and safe for the road.
She wouldn't start. After several failed attempts, I pushed it back into my garage, my first thought was to check the plugs, to my surprise, no fire on any cylinders. I checked all 4 plugs, and checked the coils with the spark tester, nothing. I have no injector pulse. And no rpm signal while cranking.
The fuel pump does run while cranking the engine. Swapped out the new camshaft sensor with the old one. No change. Crank takes time to get to. But from earlier testing it seemed the camshaft sensor was the one responsible for the tach signal. But not positive. The cam sensor, I tested the wires. 1 outside has continuity with ground, the other outside wire has 12v with key on, and the middle wire has 5v. If I back probe the middle wire with the sensor plugged in but removed from the motor, it gets 5v and it drops to 0v if I put a wrench next to it. So, I'm thinking the sensor is working. One thing, the cam sensor had oil on it when I pulled it. Is there supposed to be oil inside where the cam sensor goes? Also, while back probing the middle wire, I installed the sensor back. And put a test light on the middle wire, and other end to ground, the test light did not flash while cranking, but I'm not sure thinking about it now if my test light works for 5v or not, I'll have to go check. Are there contacts inside where the cam sensor goes that could have fallen out or something?
And I did recheck the compression, same as before, 210 across the board, so not a timing belt issue.

The cam sensor may have oil on it but it should not be covered. Basically, it is relying on the fact that it picks up the high and low spots of the tone wheel.

So, the way it works is the ECM supplies 5 volts for this sensor and then the signal return is pin 2 and it should vary between 0 and 5 volts. It will be a little more than 0 and a little less then 5 but it pulses in a specific pattern so that the ECM knows the specific position.

However, if you are not getting a good signal then that is the issue.

If oil is contaminating that signal, then we need to try and clean it off and see if the engine starts.

I cleaned off the sensor, and I tried to blow out the area inside where the sensor goes, there's a lot of oil in there. Should it be dry in there? It still didn't start. Maybe I need to replace a seal in there?

It has been a long time since I had one of these engines apart, so I don't remember if the sensor is inside the valve cover or not.

Normally these are on the dry side but based on this diagram it looks like it is inside the engine so it would have oil around it.

Monitoring the pattern would be the way we need to check its operation.

So, when it is cranking, we need to know if the sensor is sending a good pattern. If you don't have any codes for the cam sensor then it is most likely not the issue.

Okay. more info. I attached a photo of the camshaft position sensor. It's not quite like the one in the diagram. It looks like it's mounted on the outside. So, does that mean it should be dry? It looks like there's two bolts holding that housing on, but I don't want to pull it if there's something in there I might mess up. What do you think?
Also, my test light does not work on 5v, just tried. And my multimeter is had to tell if the sensor is pulsing or not because the numbers are changing to fast.
In other news, the motor almost started trying to test if the sensor was pulsing. I told the wife to try it again and give it a few quick taps on the gas pedal, and it started. It ran fine. A few things, I was messing around with the wiring harness going to the cam sensor. Maybe a bad wire? Maybe the oil in with the cam sensor is messing with the signal and its a intermediate issue and I just got lucky? And lastly. The other day when it wouldn't start it was - 5 Celsius and today it's +5 Celsius. Maybe the cold made something contract and cause a bad connection issue?
In any case, as of right now I'm not comfortable driving it any distance in case it won't start again when I'm away from home.

Oh, and if it's potentially a coldness issue, the car didn't just not start because it was cold period. I had no spark, injector pulse, or tach signal also while turning over.

Okay. I think we need to track down the wiring issue. We do this by a wiggle test.

Basically, if it is not starting, start moving the harness around gently until it starts.

If it is running, then it should stay running even if you lose the cam sensor. If you lose the crank then the engine will cut off however, it you have cam and then loose it then it will still run off the crank.

So that means to find the issue we need to have it not running and then move the harness and have it start up.

As for the signal, you will need a labscope to see the pattern, but I suspect you have found the issue but now it is just a matter of tracking it down, or just run new wires and eliminate the possibility of a wiring issue all together.

It's been a while, but I've been so busy at work it was leaving me no time with the car. But I did figure it out, wiring was good. It was a spread open connector in the plug, it would start when it was warm out but when the outside temperatures dropped below 0 c it wouldn't start, no spark, no pulse, no tachometer. The cold must have made the bad connection contract just enough that there was no contact. Depin, repin and she's good now.
Thanks for the help. And happy holidays!

That is great info and those are the hardest issues to find because most people forget about the terminals.

Thanks so much for coming back to update us. That will surely help others.

Happy new year!
New year, new problem!
I started having starting issues again. Haha sounds funny like that.
But seriously, so I started checking things, I was really stumped, but I was having multiple issues at the same time so that made diagnosing tough. But I figured out I needed a new crank sensor again, because I lost rpm signal when cranking. The first one I bought was just a cheap one. This time I got a good one. But still, it wouldn't start. So, checking spark I realized my spark was weak looking. My brand-new plugs are looking pretty black. So I'm running rich? So tonight, I brake cleaned and brass brushed my plugs to look new again, hooked everything back up, no start. So, I pulled relay 2 for the fuel pump. So, I have no fuel pumping at all, and I sprayed starting fluid in the intake tube while my wife was cranking it over, and it started and ran while I was spraying the fluid. But it won't run on fuel. And it is definitely getting fuel, because if I pull the 4 plugs and turn it over you can see it spraying out the plug holes, plus when i try to start the car and it won't start, if I pull the plugs they will be soaked in gas, it just floods out and won't start. Also, as mentioned earlier the plugs got really back after a short time of running the car, suggesting it's been running rich.
The plugs are gapped to spec according to the manual. Is it possible I'm just getting too much fuel, and what would cause this? The fuel pressure regulator was already mentioned before here. Would it be at fault? It's in the fuel tank as it's a return less fuel system.
Or is there any other issue that could be causing this?

Very interesting.

So, this means we have a fuel issue, and we need to narrow that down. The issue is either the fuel pressure is too high and when the injectors open it sprays way too much fuel.

Or the injectors are sticking open causing them to flood the engine.

The other possible cause of this is the fuel is old and can no longer start the engine. So just make sure this is good clean fuel that is relatively new.

So, this means we need to start with the fuel pressure and find out where to go next.

https://www.2carpros.com/articles/how-to-check-fuel-system-pressure-and-regulator

Let me know what you find with this, and we can go from there. Thanks

Weird, I had replied to this yesterday, but it seems to have not gone through.

Okay, fuel, it's definitely fresh fuel.
Fuel pressure is 48/49 PSI.
The injectors I had out of the car a couple months ago when I was trouble shooting issues as well. They all sprayed well, and they all worked properly and were all cleaned at the same time.

A friend of a friend had just recommended that I change the coolant temperature sensor. He said if it failed or is giving a false very cold reading that the ecu will send more fuel for a cold start and that coul be the flooding issue. He also told me to get new plugs, as cleaning them after they have fouled will still produce a weak spark. That accompanying too much fuel and boom, no start.

Does this sound plausible? CTS is cheap enough to try it, I guess.

It is possible that the coolant temperature sensor is causing an issue, but this is normally after the engine is warmed up.

The reason is, if the temperature sensor is reading cold then the engine would run well when it is actually cold but then after it warms up it would still be reading cold, and the engine would start to run poorly.

However, you have a no start issue and the PCM does not use the ECT during start up. There is a predetermined amount of fuel used for all starting functions. The temperature sensor is used once the engine is started and running to determine when to switch to closed loop.

The plugs make more sense as once they are fouled, they tend to not recover so I would go with that theory.

However, if the engine starts and runs on a different fuel source then the plugs are not causing the no start. They may still need to be changed but we still have to figure out why you have a flooding condition going on.

The fuel pressure should be about 47 PSI so that looks perfect.

However, this does not rule out an injector leaking so check the fuel pressure again and let's watch the gauge after you shut the key off.

So, turn the key on and even crank the engine and watch what the pressure does.

Then shut the key off and tell me what the pressure does up to 5 minutes after the key is off. It should drop some but if it drops below 30 PSI then more than likely the injectors are leaking, or the regulator is the issue.

Can you get a video of the gauge if it drops at all?

Okay, so, I picked up a coolant temperature sensor yesterday anyway just because it was cheap and in stock at the local part store. No change.

I hooked up the gauge to the fuel line again. I have a video I attached up above in the chat here. It did the exact same as that video. The needle is around 48ish psi, it drops to 42 PSI as soon as I stop cranking the engine. And after 5 minutes it dropped to 40 PSI.

Also, the plugs, I was unable to get new plugs, the local store didn't have the NGKs in stock, I'll have to order them next week. My current plugs though, I've noticed that the gap was smaller than I set them. The manual calls for .028 to .031 I had them gapped to .030 but when I rechecked now they were all around .023 I don't know if that's enough to cause issues, and I assume that's from dropping them in the holes, but from now on I'm going to gap them and insert them with the plug socket so the gap has no chance of being affected by dropping them in.
The car would still not start with them gapped right, but I'd still like to get some new NGKs to absolutely rule out the plugs as an issue.

Have you cranked the engine and then pulled the plugs to check if the injectors are actually firing?

Clearly if this is running off of an outside fuel source then you have a fuel delivery issue, and the ignition system is fine.

I understand you checked the injectors outside the vehicle, but we need to find out why it will not fire off of the fuel in the vehicle.

Have you tried leaving the injectors enabled and use a spray in the intake and see if it fires? If it does then you have no fuel delivery.

This would make sense as to why the pressure drops as soon as you stop cranking.

You can also check this by using this guide to find out if the injectors are pulsing.

https://www.2carpros.com/articles/how-to-test-a-fuel-injector

Basically, we need to get more serious on the fuel side and find out why it will run on brake cleaner but not the fuel system.

Thanks

Yes, if I pull all 4 spark plugs out and crank the engine over you can see fuel shooting out the cylinders. I also have a stethoscope and can hear the injectors firing.

Also, after a failed attempt at trying to start the car, if I pull the plugs to inspect, they are soaked in gas.

Oh, and if I spray in the intake while the fuel system is enabled it will not start. It bucks a little bit but will not start. The spray only works if the fuel system is disabled.

I believe I'm getting too much fuel and its flooding, soaking the plugs. But why? Are the plugs too weak to ignite the fuel, but good enough to ignite the ether in the start fluid spay?

I think I need new plugs next possibly. But I'm not sure.
Oh, and I can add, I tried a known working ECU and it's the same results, no change. They are plug and play, no immobilizer.

Okay. That is good.

So, what will cause the engine to flood are high fuel pressure, faulty regulator, leaking injectors, weak spark plugs, or ECM.

So, we have crossed most of these off the list. However, let's just do a clear flood start to get more evidence.

You hold the accelerator to the floor and crank the engine. This will cut the injectors and introduce more air and it should start.

Clearly this doesn't solve the issue, but it confirms the over fueling which means we need to replace the regulator and injectors. However, if you were checking the pressure from the injector side of the regulator then it is fine.

The regulator is in the tank with the fuel pump as it's a return less system. And I put my pressure gauge right before the fuel rail.

This morning I went out to the car, the gauge dropped to 18psi but that's overnight. Is that okay? After 5 minutes it only dropped to 38.

I also tried the clear flood start while I was out there, it did not start. But I feel like I should replace the spark plugs to give this test a fair chance. I should be able to get new plugs this week.
I feel the ether spray will ignite with the potentially weak spark where the gasoline may not, possibly?

I did not check the plugs after the clear start test, but any other time after a failed start when I checked the plugs they were soaked in gas.

Okay. I think we are narrowing this down. I thought it was on the rail, but you are correct.

So, if the pressure drops to 38 after 5 minutes that is okay if it is the regulator that is causing the pressure to drop.

However, if that is coming through the injectors then that is the issue.

I fully expect that we have leaking injectors because that is what makes the most sense.

When you removed the plugs, were all of them soaked? I agree that a weak spark would cause this so if your plan is to change the plugs then let us know what happens.

Thanks

Okay, so I messed with the car today. I got the proper NGK 3656 plugs. I had the Autolite equivalent in it before. The NGKs are the OEM plug, and I've read mixed reviews online that only the NGKs work proper in these motors. Nowhere had them in stock so I originally got the Autolite's. But now I ordered the NGK 3656 plug, and they are installed.

After installing the plugs, there was no change. All 4 plugs came out soaked in gas after trying to start it.

Now, I tried this already a few nights ago, it would start on ether spray alone, but not on the spray with the fuel system running as well.
But tonight, I tried the spray in the intake for fun with the fuel on and it started and continued to run. It ran rough and backfired a lot though. I didn't let it run for long like this. It seemed to idle not too bad but backfired and wanted to stall when giving it throttle.

I again checked for spark; they spark beautifully now. I also tested the injector plugs for pulse with a test light. I tested for pulse with all 4 unplugged and again after plugging in one at a time to rule out one possibly shorting out, I never lost pulse no matter which one was being tested while the rest were plugged in.

So that's where I am now. So why the backfiring and rough running? I'm guessing it's running rich. It needs the ether to get started, it just ignites easier I guess and gets it going. Once it starts it stays running. Without the spray the plugs drowned in gas.

The last time I had the car running it did run rough when it first started, I just assumed it was because I hadn't run it in a bit, after it warmed up it a great without backfiring. This was probably a month ago or so. But I'm thinking that backfiring isn't just because it's been a while since it ran. Also, those Autolite plugs got really black after just a short time of the car running a month ago as well. Indicating a rich condition.

Where do I go from here? I had no DTC's before when it was running either.

If I have a leaking injector there's not really a way to determine which one is leaking is there? Or would I have to replace them all?
But if only one was leaking would that cause a no start? It wouldn't run on 3 cylinders. All 4 plugs are getting wet.

Just came outside this morning, fuel pressure is zero. Lost all pressure overnight. Is that normal or should it hold some pressure?

You are on it. It is unlikely that all 4 are leaking but that is what this seems like.

The backfiring at this point can be attributed to too much fuel.

It started this time with the starter fluid because you most likely had low pressure, so the starter fluid was the right amount of fuel.

If it were me, I would replace all the injectors before anything else.

Also, yes, it is not unlikely for the pressure to drop overnight so I would not worry about this. The test is the speed at which it drops. A leaking system will not hold the pressure as long as a sealed system but they both will lose pressure.