No crank and will not start

Tiny
SOPHIA807
  • MEMBER
  • 1999 JEEP GRAND CHEROKEE
  • 4.7L
  • V8
  • AWD
  • AUTOMATIC
  • 240,000 MILES
About a month ago it would not start after replacing the alternator. In trying to find the problem, we replaced the spark plugs, fuel injectors, camshaft sensor, idle air control valve, fuel filter, serpentine belt and ecm computer that we got from the junkyard. Still would not start. We finally had it towed to the dealer and they replaced the starter and starter wire harness and it started. It ran for about two weeks stalling of and on at stop lights, but always starting back up. Last week the engine shut down while driving. The radio and lights stayed on but it would not start. The error code diagnostic does not work. It would usually display "done" if there are no codes after you turn the key off and on three times but now nothing happens. We also put the original ECM computer back in but it still does not crank or start. Can you offer any suggestions of what may be the problem? I do not want to have it towed back to the dealer again.
Thursday, December 29th, 2016 AT 10:26 AM

15 Replies

Tiny
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Please clarify "does not start". You said the first problem was solved by replacing the starter, so what in the world led to to the alternator, spark plugs, fuel filter, etc? By "does not start", do you mean the starter fails to crank the engine, or do you mean the starter works fine but the engine does not run? Those are two totally different symptoms with two totally different diagnostic procedures, but people call both of them "does not start".

The stalling at stop signs has an extremely easy fix, but I will cover that once the other problems are solved.
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Sunday, January 5th, 2020 AT 7:50 PM
Tiny
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The alternator, spark plugs, etc. Were replaced before I took it to the dealer. We replaced several parts trying to get it to start. The dealer replaced the starter and wire harness to the starter. It ran okay for about two weeks, with the exception of stalling occasionally.

The starter is turning over but the engine does not run.
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Sunday, January 5th, 2020 AT 7:50 PM
Tiny
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Thank you your last sentence is exactly what I needed to know. Have you read the diagnostic fault codes recently? Any codes were erased previously when the battery was disconnected to replace the starter and alternator? Also, have you checked for spark? There are three common causes for a crank/no-start. Those are loss of spark, loss of fuel pressure, and by far the most common, loss of both of them. Too many people get hung up on the first thing they find missing and spend all their time in the wrong system. For some reason, that usually seems to lead them to the fuel pump.

The problem is the fuel pump will run for one second when you turn on the ignition switch. That gets the fuel pressure up to normal and causes people to mistakenly think the system is working all the time. Instead, what is important is if the pump resumes running during engine cranking. That is what is typically overlooked.

If you find you have no spark, we will start by assuming you also do not have fuel. This covers about ninety five percent of these no-starts. If there are still no fault codes, do not panic. The circuits in question often do not set codes just from cranking the engine. They set while a stalled engine is coasting to a stop. The first thing we need to determine is if the automatic shutdown, (ASD) relay is turning on.

Look for the wire that is the same color at every injector, and at any ignition coil. Usually that is a dark green/orange wire. Probe that wire through the back of the connector at any injector or coil, or on either of the smaller terminals on the back of the alternator. A test light works best for this because digital voltmeters do not respond fast enough. The test light should light up for one second when you turn on the ignition switch. You might also hear the hum of the fuel pump at the same time. That proves the ASD relay turned on and the engine computer has control of it.

What is important is the relay should turn on again during engine cranking. If it does not, the crankshaft position sensor and the camshaft position sensor are suspect. If there is no fault code to point to one of those circuits, you will need a scanner to view live data. That will list each sensor with a "no" or "present", or some similar indication to tell if the signals are showing up at the computer.

If the twelve volts did not show up for that first one second when you turned on the ignition switch, suspect a blown fuse. Remove the ASD relay, then in the socket, check for twelve volts on terminals thirty and eighty seven. One of those must have twelve volts all the time. I cannot remember which one that is, but if neither has voltage, a fuse is blown.
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Sunday, January 5th, 2020 AT 7:50 PM
Tiny
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The on board diagnostic default tool is not working. When I turn the key three times on and off, nothing happens. It does not even give me the 'done' indicator like it used too. Also, gas was sprayed into the intake manifold and it still did not start so we do not think it is a fuel problem.
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Sunday, January 5th, 2020 AT 7:50 PM
Tiny
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Did you do any of the tests I described?
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Sunday, January 5th, 2020 AT 7:50 PM
Tiny
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No not yet. Will try tomorrow.
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Sunday, January 5th, 2020 AT 7:50 PM
Tiny
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We charged the battery overnight and hooked up an external diagnostic tool to see if we could get any codes. No we are getting a P1389 code.
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Sunday, January 5th, 2020 AT 7:50 PM
Tiny
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P1389 - No ASD relay output voltage at PCM.

This correlates with the test I asked you to do to determine if the relay is turning on. That relay sends current to the ignition coils, injectors, alternator field, oxygen sensor heaters, and fuel pump or pump relay. The last place it goes is right back to the engine computer to allow it to verify the relay turned on when it commanded to.
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Sunday, January 5th, 2020 AT 7:50 PM
Tiny
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Sorry. Computer has a mind of its own and posted while I was still typing.

If the computer is indeed trying to turn the ASD relay on, that suggests the crankshaft position sensor and camshaft position sensor are working. It is their signals that tell the computer the engine is rotating, and it is time to turn the relay on.

While it is very uncommon, the first suspect now is a defective relay. Start by swapping it with one of the other ones like it. If the engine still does not run, do the test I described on the dark green/orange wire.
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Sunday, January 5th, 2020 AT 7:50 PM
Tiny
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Swapping out the relay did not work. Where is the dark green/orange wire that we should test?
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Sunday, January 5th, 2020 AT 7:50 PM
Tiny
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That wire is at every ignition coil, every injector, or either smaller terminal on the back of the alternator.
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Sunday, January 5th, 2020 AT 7:50 PM
Tiny
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Turns out it was the ASD fuse number six that was blown. We replaced it and now the vehicle starts but we still have a problem. We were driving the vehicle with the wrong PCM. We got a computer from the junk yard that was for a Jeep with four 02 sensors. My vehicle only has two 02 sensors. We have since put the old computer back in.

Now we are getting four error codes: p0351, p0352, p0356, p0358. I think the stalling issue was because of the coils and maybe that blew the fuse. What do you think?
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Sunday, January 5th, 2020 AT 7:50 PM
Tiny
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Nope. You have to have four oxygen sensors, two on each side. Every engine since the mid 1970's has an oxygen sensor, and with most engines now, they have one on each side of a V-6 and V-8 engine. Those always come before the catalytic converter and are for fuel metering fine tuning. Starting with the new emissions system on all 1996 models, a second oxygen sensor is added right after every catalytic converter to monitor its efficiency. Those have nothing to do with fuel metering, but they work the same way.

Oxygen sensors do not work until they get to six hundred degrees. To get them there faster, they have electric heaters in them. Those get their current through the ASD relay, just like the injectors and ignition coils do. There have been reports of the wiring harness falling down onto hot exhaust parts, then the wires melt and short to the engine. That will cause the ASD fuse to blow, and it could be an intermittent problem.
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Sunday, January 5th, 2020 AT 7:50 PM
Tiny
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Left side not firing until we get over five mph and then it runs fine. Any idea what this could be?
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Sunday, January 5th, 2020 AT 7:50 PM
Tiny
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Those fault codes all refer to various ignition coil circuits. To have so many failures at once, along with misfires that are affected by road speed. I would start by looking at the wiring harness that connects the engine to the body. Look for a loose connector that is flexing when the engine rocks back and forth. Wiggle and pull on different parts of the harnesses to see if anything makes the misfires clear up.

While much less common, a problem with a crankshaft position sensor or camshaft position sensor can cause intermittent problems. All position sensors generate a signal when something creates or disturbs a magnetic field, and in all cases, movement between parts is required. At lower speeds, less movement means a lower signal voltage is developed. A weak sensor can stop generating a signal at a speed where it should still be working. If there is no diagnostic fault code related to one of those sensors, you would need a scanner with graphing capability to watch those signals to see if one is dropping out.
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Sunday, January 5th, 2020 AT 7:50 PM

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