Long start

Tiny
LIZ4RD
  • MEMBER
  • 2000 PONTIAC BONNEVILLE
  • 3.8L
  • 6 CYL
  • 2WD
  • AUTOMATIC
  • 224,938 MILES
Hi, my car listed above with the 3800 not supercharged motor cranks for about 6 seconds on normal days above 20 degrees F. But during the winter the car wont start at all it will fire on a couple cylinders for the first second then after that I get nothing. No action. Its like if it flooded itself. The only way to start it is if you hold the throttle wide open and start cranking I took a picture of my fuel trims at idle. I am thinking it is a vacuum leak but I cannot find it at all. Because of the positive fuel trims.
I just replaced the fuel pump and filter and we have good fuel pressure and a strong spark on all 6. Thanks
Tuesday, September 3rd, 2019 AT 7:15 PM

23 Replies

Tiny
LIZ4RD
  • MEMBER
  • 32 POSTS
This guy explains exactly what my car does during the winter.
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Wednesday, September 4th, 2019 AT 6:58 AM
Tiny
JACOBANDNICKOLAS
  • MECHANIC
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Welcome to 2CarPros.

The first thing that comes to mind is that the engine coolant temperature sensor (ECT) is inaccurate. If you have a live data scanner, check the signal from the ECT. Is the temperature it is indicating close to the coolant temp in the engine?

If the sensor is telling the power-train control module it is -40°F and it's actually 80, the PCM will make the fuel mixture extremely rich to allow the engine to run at the cold temp, and basically flood the engine because it isn't actually that cold. And, the opposite can happen causing a mixture that is extremely lean. The idea that you have to press the accelerator leads me to believe it is related because when you depress the accelerator, it shuts fuel down at the injectors.

Let me know if you have a live data scanner and what you find.

Also, here are the directions for replacing the sensor if you find it is the problem. The attached pic correlates with the directions. Now please keep in mind that the number of miles on the engine may have an affect on engine compression. That too can cause a hard start, especially in cold conditions.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

2000 Pontiac Bonneville V6-3.8L VIN K
Engine Coolant Temperature (ECT) Sensor Replacement
Vehicle Power-train Management Sensors and Switches - Power-train Management Sensors and Switches - Computers and Control Systems Coolant Temperature Sensor/Switch (For Computer) Service and Repair Procedures Repair Instructions Engine Coolant Temperature (ECT) Sensor Replacement
NOTE: Use care when handling the coolant sensor. Damage to the coolant sensor will affect the operation of the fuel control system.

Pic 1

REMOVAL PROCEDURE

IMPORTANT: Care must be taken when handling the Engine Coolant Temperature (ECT) sensor. Damage to the sensor will affect the operation of the fuel injection system.

CAUTION: Refer to Battery Disconnect Caution in Service Precautions.

1. Disconnect the negative battery cable.
2. Drain the radiator coolant. Refer to Draining and Filling Cooling System in Cooling System.
3. Disconnect the electrical connector (1) from the ECT sensor (3).
4. Remove the ECT sensor shield (2) from around the sensor.
5. Remove the ECT sensor from the engine.

INSTALLATION PROCEDURE

IMPORTANT: Care must be taken when handling the engine coolant temperature sensor. Damage to the sensor will affect the operation of the fuel injection system.

NOTE: Refer to Component Tightening Notice in Service Precautions.

1. Hand-start the ECT sensor (3) into the engine.
2. Tighten the ECT sensor.

Tighten
Tighten the sensor to 25 N.M (18 lb ft).

3. Install the ECT sensor shield (2) around the ECT sensor.
4. Connect the electrical connector (1) to the ECT sensor (3).
5. Refill the radiator with coolant. Refer to Draining and Filling Cooling System in Cooling System.
6. Connect the negative battery cable.
7. Start the engine.
8. Check for coolant leaks
9. Check the coolant level.

__________________________________________________

Let me know what you find or if you have other questions.

Take care,
Joe
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Wednesday, September 4th, 2019 AT 8:06 PM
Tiny
LIZ4RD
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Yes, I do have a live data scan tool. I will let you know tomorrow morning. I just got done driving it so the motor is hot. The vehicle also has a intake air temperature could that also cause the issue if it is bad?
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Wednesday, September 4th, 2019 AT 9:35 PM
Tiny
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The first one is after a drive and the second one is when the engine is cold in the morning the outside temperature was around 52 degrees Fahrenheit. I am assuming that they are working correctly.
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Thursday, September 5th, 2019 AT 8:04 AM
Tiny
JACOBANDNICKOLAS
  • MECHANIC
  • 109,645 POSTS
Welcome back:

Those look normal. Have you ever checked compression? Does the engine have 200+K miles on it?

https://www.2carpros.com/articles/how-to-test-engine-compression

As far as the IAT, it looks right also. Were the temps cold approximately what the outside ambient temperature was?

Let me know.
Joe
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Thursday, September 5th, 2019 AT 7:24 PM
Tiny
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The car does have over 200,000 miles. I will check compression but this car runs like a dream when started. No smoke out of exhaust or burning oil.
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Thursday, September 5th, 2019 AT 7:49 PM
Tiny
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Welcome back:

It may not be the problem. However, when the engine is cold, compression will be lower. Once it heats up and the metal expands, compression will increase. It's a thought at this point.

Let me know.

Joe
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Thursday, September 5th, 2019 AT 8:21 PM
Tiny
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Yea, that would make sense, but it still cranks for a long time even when the engine is hot. I will do a compression test on Monday. When I get a chance I will let you know how it goes. Thanks
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Saturday, September 7th, 2019 AT 7:50 AM
Tiny
JACOBANDNICKOLAS
  • MECHANIC
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Welcome back:

Since you have a live data scanner, do me a favor. Have it plugged in before you try to start the engine. Have it so you can see the RPM signal. When you crank the engine, see if at first there is no signal and then it shows up and starts. This will be easier than the compression test. Let's eliminate an issue with the crankshaft position sensor.

Take care,
Joe
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Saturday, September 7th, 2019 AT 6:38 PM
Tiny
LIZ4RD
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Okay, I can do that real quick.
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Saturday, September 7th, 2019 AT 6:46 PM
Tiny
LIZ4RD
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Okay, so my scan tool is Bluetooth and it has a delay from when I see the info to the actual status of the engine. I did see like 200 to 400 rpm on the screen. I have a question too. I liked a video of me starting the car. It cranks pretty good at the moment, but wouldn't you be able to see some signal from the rpm gauge while cranking? I don't know if it is programmed to do that or what? Just a thought.
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Saturday, September 7th, 2019 AT 7:02 PM
Tiny
JACOBANDNICKOLAS
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Welcome back:

Okay, no need for a compression test. It sounds great. And yes, when cranking it will show the RPM signal (around 200 rpm). I want you to try one more thing.

When you suspect a delayed start, do this first.

1) Turn the key from the off position to the run position (engine off) and count to 5.

2) Turn the key off and repeat step 1.

Do that 3 times and on the 4th, see if it starts faster.

Let me know.

Joe
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Saturday, September 7th, 2019 AT 7:14 PM
Tiny
LIZ4RD
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Alrighty I not sure if its starts faster I cycled the pump 5 times. I am sending you a video for you to make the call.
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Saturday, September 7th, 2019 AT 7:18 PM
Tiny
JACOBANDNICKOLAS
  • MECHANIC
  • 109,645 POSTS
Welcome back:

That sounds the same. I have to be honest. Is that how it always starts? It doesn't sound out of the ordinary. Having that many miles on it, I feel confident it has lost some compression which could delay it slightly, but considering the mileage, it doesn't sound bad.

Let me know.
Joe
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Sunday, September 8th, 2019 AT 6:34 PM
Tiny
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Well, I bought the car about 8 months ago and it has always done it with me. But I asked the previous owner and he said it started like that all of a sudden. It sat overnight and the next morning bang. It cranks a lot longer when the motor is cold.
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Sunday, September 8th, 2019 AT 6:55 PM
Tiny
JACOBANDNICKOLAS
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Based on your last description, usually that indicates fuel pressure drop off. Have you checked that?

https://www.2carpros.com/articles/how-to-check-fuel-system-pressure-and-regulator

Joe
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Monday, September 9th, 2019 AT 5:39 PM
Tiny
LIZ4RD
  • MEMBER
  • 32 POSTS
I don't have a fuel pressure regulator. And I just replaced the filter and pump assembly about 2 months ago. And my fuel pressure regulator is not leaking any fuel out of the vacuum line. I have been trying to figure this problem out ever since I have got it and I would say I am pretty knowledgeable when it comes to vehicles. It is blowing my mind why it is doing this. Would you think it is a vacuum leak that the mas sensor is not picking up? I have looked a bit didn't find anything, but I can always look again? Could that be a cause?
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Monday, September 9th, 2019 AT 5:52 PM
Tiny
JACOBANDNICKOLAS
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I'm not sure I understand. You said you don;t have a fuel pressure regulator and then said it wasn't drawing fuel through the vacuum line. Did you mean you don't have a fuel pressure gauge? Fuel pressure drop off can be caused by a few different thing. One of which could be a leaking fuel injector or a bad check valve in the fuel pump.

Let me know. Sorry for all the questions.

Joe
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Monday, September 9th, 2019 AT 5:56 PM
Tiny
LIZ4RD
  • MEMBER
  • 32 POSTS
So I just took a picture of the fuel trims at idle and I have done some research. I am told that anything above a 10% for a ltft is not good. And many symptoms of a vacuum leak are what I am experiencing. Can this be true?
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Monday, September 9th, 2019 AT 6:00 PM
Tiny
LIZ4RD
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Oh yea, my bad I meant a fuel pressure gauge.
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Monday, September 9th, 2019 AT 6:31 PM

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