Intermittent stalling while driving

Tiny
KUIPER94
  • MEMBER
  • 2010 DODGE CHARGER
  • 3.5L
  • 6 CYL
  • 2WD
  • AUTOMATIC
  • 64,500 MILES
So, I've been troubleshooting this issue for a few months, because I've had numerous other things stand out while working on it.

Simply put, the car intermittently stalls while on the road, and there isn't much to go by as I haven't really identified the stall conditions. Even more weird, unplugging the MAP sensor brings the car back, and it runs fine in reduced RPM limp mode.

I don't get any codes when it stalls, and I have a Micropod 2, as well as the Witech software. When I did check the PCM, I couldn't get it to talk (Funny enough, this is while the engine was running too). So I had just replaced the PCM, but still no fix. I've replaced the MAP sensor, and Intake Air sensor. I've replaced the coil packs, and re-gapped the sparkplugs. I have new injectors, and the intake manifold is clean. I've checked the harnesses, and they're all good, the fuel pump is ~2 years old (I had it fail on me). I had taken the plenum out, and scrubbed it down to get oil residue out, and I had removed the throttle body to clean it with Throttle body cleaner and some cotton pads.

Additional info, I was in a front end accident in 2019, and had redone the body work, control arms (upper and lower), struts, and tie rods.

I also had some initial issues in December where the car would misfire, but not throw a code, which caused me to clean, and rebuild the intake, as well as coils, and injectors. After that point, that is when my car would intermittently stall.

I'm kind of at a loss here for where to go now. The issue is clearly electronic, because when it runs, it runs great. But when it does run, there is some hesitation with the throttle response. The thought did cross my mind that I could have a CANbus issue, but I've ruled it out since I'd see more modules acting up, and throwing weird codes.

If anyone has the pinouts with what the expected resistances are for the throttle body, I'd love to see if maybe I messed up my throttle body. Some spec data would also go pretty far, since I can read all the data coming from the car.

Thank you very much for reading, if any info is needed, I will gladly supply.
Also sorry if this sounds a little scatter brained, I'm trying to remember all the things I've touched, while also thinking about what I could have messed up. I've been to a few shops having them check my work, and nobody has identified any issues, heck nobody has even been able to get it to stall. Also the car shifts fine, and I had the trans checked, which came out clean.
Sunday, March 7th, 2021 AT 4:09 PM

21 Replies

Tiny
KUIPER94
  • MEMBER
  • 12 POSTS
Will do, and yes the Witech software can read all vehicle sensor data, and record. I just haven't figured out how to read what it's telling me yet.

One thing I did play around with today was the fuel pump relay, I actually get an identical stall condition when I pull the relay, where the vehicle continues to pull a vacuum on the fuel line until it's dry. But it sputters out once it does dry up. I had replaced the relay, but now the car seems to have fuel pressure issues, so I'd agree with you on checking what the actual pressure is, since I'm starting to think maybe the fuel pump is failing.

The last time the pump failed on me, I didn't have this much trouble with it, it just up and quit and made a loud grinding sound. Currently it sounds fine, but I'm also going to try and get a meter on the pump and since my meter can also do data logging I'm going to check to see if it gets a voltage drop when it stalls.

It may be a few days before my next reply, since I'll be heading back to work, but I'll still be driving the same car.
Was this
answer
helpful?
Yes
No
Monday, March 8th, 2021 AT 4:34 PM
Tiny
KEN L
  • MASTER CERTIFIED MECHANIC
  • 47,490 POSTS
This sounds like the crankshaft angle sensor or the fuel pump has gone out. when you turn the key to the on position without cranking the engine over can you hear the fuel pump run in the tank for 5 seconds?

https://www.2carpros.com/articles/car-cranks-but-wont-start

and

https://www.2carpros.com/articles/engine-stalls

Neither will throw a code, lets try the crankshaft sensor first. here are the instructions on doing so. Check out the diagrams (below). Let us know what happens and please upload pictures or videos of the problem.
Was this
answer
helpful?
Yes
No
Monday, March 8th, 2021 AT 4:41 PM
Tiny
KUIPER94
  • MEMBER
  • 12 POSTS
Ken,

I do hear the fuel pump priming, and it sounds fine, it's a low brrrr for 5 seconds. I always prime it before I attempt to start, as in, key in "on", but not crank. When I do crank it, it doesn't hesitate, or hang start.

I'll get you some pics and updates tomorrow, since it's 9:00 PM. I wish I had my card in my dash cam on Sunday, since it stalled out on the highway, but wasn't very eventful, I hit 60, and I felt a loss in power, and it creeped down until it cut out.
Was this
answer
helpful?
Yes
No
Monday, March 8th, 2021 AT 6:16 PM
Tiny
JACOBANDNICKOLAS
  • MECHANIC
  • 109,700 POSTS
Hi,

I read through this thread and noticed we haven't heard from you for a couple of days. Has any progress been made? We are very interested in knowing.

As far as the problem, as Ken mentioned, it could be the pump or crankshaft position sensor. Does the vehicle restart immediately after it stalls?

Take a look through this link and let us know if it seems to mirror what you experience.

https://www.2carpros.com/articles/symptoms-of-a-bad-crankshaft-sensor

How badly was the vehicle damaged in the accident?
Take care and God Bless,

Joe

Was this
answer
helpful?
Yes
No
Wednesday, March 10th, 2021 AT 7:48 PM
Tiny
KUIPER94
  • MEMBER
  • 12 POSTS
Hey sorry for the lack of a status update.

So, I did record some videos just going over the stuff I've done, I did swap the fuel pump relay on Sunday, which didn't affect anything much. The fuel pump isn't doing anything weird either. As for getting sensor data recordings I still haven't figured out what I have to do. In Witech's flight recorder mode, it wants me to input a profile, but have nothing to feed it. I also have been having issues with the laptop I'm using as a diagnostic computer (Just windows 10 being stupid, and it doesn't recognize I've plugged something in through USB).

All that said, I haven't stalled out yet, it's been a few days, but my throttle response is pretty garbo, and after reading what Ken said about the crankshaft position sensor, I started reading into what it's fault conditions are, and it's dead on with what I'm seeing. I'd check to see what it's reporting to the ECU, but like I said, the laptop has been a pain. So I ordered one from RockAuto, and should have it next week.

All things considered, I think Ken is dead on, at least with what I'm seeing right now. I still find it funny that unplugging the MAP sensor somehow bypasses sensor input for the crankshaft sensor (Since, whenever the vehicle stalls, It's almost impossible to get it to start back up without unplugging the MAP sensor). I guess maybe the ECU goes into a 'last known configuration' type of safe mode, where it doesn't rely on sensor input to do it's on the fly tuning, and just goes on straight programming.

As for damage in the 2019 accident, it was entirely cosmetic, didn't affect the vehicle bumper, just the plastic bumper. The rad was 100%, didn't even break the headlight mounts. Though, from an accident in it's prior life, the mounts for the upper control arm were bent, but nothing I couldn't fix with a hammer when installing the new ones. None of the accidents the vehicle has been in appear to have done anything more than cosmetic damage, and maybe some slight frame warping (In the case of the control arm tabs on the chassis tub being bent a little). All of the alignments are pretty spot on, and the car doesn't walk at all.
Was this
answer
helpful?
Yes
No
Wednesday, March 10th, 2021 AT 9:47 PM
Tiny
JACOBANDNICKOLAS
  • MECHANIC
  • 109,700 POSTS
Thanks for the updated. Let us know if the crankshaft position sensor takes care of the issue.

Take care,
Joe
Was this
answer
helpful?
Yes
No
Thursday, March 11th, 2021 AT 2:11 PM
Tiny
KUIPER94
  • MEMBER
  • 12 POSTS
Terribly sorry about the super late reply, I got the CPS sensor done a few days ago, and I had done the relearn procedure, along with a few other relearn procedures in Witech. The car runs great, except for one thing that has bugged me ever since this all started, and It's only just dawned on me what it might be.

So, as I've said before, I've had some slight throttle hesitation, like you hit 50% on the pedal, and the car revs to 2,000, and has to think about whether it can put more power into it or not, and then a second or two later it makes its mind up, and hits 4-5k. Tonight I noticed it doesn't do that when driving with autostick (the kind of manual mode, but for an automatic transmission). I had also noticed it doesn't do ECO mode when autostick is engaged. Now I have to do some highway testing, since I did get it to stall on the highway at 65MPH the day before I had the CPS sensor replaced, but I also wasn't driving with autostick engaged when that happened.

But this all brought into my mind something I was testing in Witech, I forget what it's called but it's the motor attached to the plenum, that opens these dampers for the EGR system, and lets exhaust gas in through the top end of the intake. When I actuate that motor, and send it to full open, the car immediately stalls, which I had just assumed I was flooding it with exhaust gas, and it wasn't getting any oxygen. I'm wondering if the car is supposed to run with that full open.

Some context; when I was screwing around and cleaning everything back in January, I had removed that motor, and cleaned the plenum with soap and water, and let it dry for a few days. I'm wondering if I had misaligned that motor, or those dampers when I put it back together.

In the attached image, I'm talking about part #10, it moves these air dampers inside the plenum, and I'm wondering if them being misaligned somehow can cause my stall condition. After all, it would make sense that I've created my own problem, and have been chasing phantoms the whole time. Either way, the car has been running pretty decent lately, I just haven't taken it on the highway, I've been too busy to get to have some fun with it.

Thank you all once again for your help. This has been a heck of a learning experience.
Was this
answer
helpful?
Yes
No
Wednesday, March 24th, 2021 AT 9:41 PM
Tiny
KUIPER94
  • MEMBER
  • 12 POSTS
So, a next day update. I did play around with that motors alignment, and have made conditions worse. The throttle response, and hesitation seems like the car is choking whenever it runs in eco mode. Driving in autostick, which disables eco mode makes everything go back to normal operation, save for the car running a little bit more rich.

So, is there an alignment procedure for this little guy? Cause the only thing I can think of is taking the plenum off, and pressing the vent/dampers to a full closed position, and somehow lining the motor up to that.
Was this
answer
helpful?
Yes
No
Thursday, March 25th, 2021 AT 12:18 PM
Tiny
JACOBANDNICKOLAS
  • MECHANIC
  • 109,700 POSTS
Hi,

Number 10 is the short runner valve actuator. If you take a look at the pics below, they describe the installation process. Let me know if that is the part you are referring to.

Joe

see pics below
Was this
answer
helpful?
Yes
No
Thursday, March 25th, 2021 AT 5:51 PM
Tiny
KUIPER94
  • MEMBER
  • 12 POSTS
Joe,

Yep that looks like it. Is there a way to incorrectly install it? Since it feels like it only goes in one way, but then again maybe I'm doing it incorrectly.

I was thinking about telling the computer to close the valves (with the solenoid unmounted), and installing it that way. Since it feels like it's spring loaded, and I can't seem to get it to line up correctly with the notch in the plenum. I can get it installed, but I think the valves are slightly open once I have it in there.
Was this
answer
helpful?
Yes
No
Thursday, March 25th, 2021 AT 6:26 PM
Tiny
JACOBANDNICKOLAS
  • MECHANIC
  • 109,700 POSTS
There is a slot in the actuator that needs to be aligned with the shaft in the intake. Did you do that? That is the only part that gets aligned.

Joe
Was this
answer
helpful?
Yes
No
Friday, March 26th, 2021 AT 10:52 AM
Tiny
KUIPER94
  • MEMBER
  • 12 POSTS
Joe,

Yeah, I have it aligned, it's keyed in such a way that it can only be installed one way. Maybe I had messed up something with the shaft, or the plenum. I'm going to have to take it apart again to see.
Was this
answer
helpful?
Yes
No
Friday, March 26th, 2021 AT 11:14 AM
Tiny
JACOBANDNICKOLAS
  • MECHANIC
  • 109,700 POSTS
To the best of my knowledge, that is the only alignment point. Let me know what you find.

Take care,
Joe
Was this
answer
helpful?
Yes
No
Friday, March 26th, 2021 AT 6:38 PM
Tiny
KUIPER94
  • MEMBER
  • 12 POSTS
Greetings again,

So I've replaced the CPS, and lubed up the Short Runner Valves, since they were sticking, and I figured maybe the engine was choking. Fortunately the short runner valves helped the cars hesitation, and performance issues. Unfortunately, the car still stalls. The data recorder doesn't show anything weird when it stalls either. It's almost as if the car just gives up, or gets a shutdown signal.

Now mind you, it's not a total engine kill, it goes into a state where the car is idle, and the throttle has no affect on it. It'll let you pull off to the side of the road, but if you try to accelerate then it cuts the engine. Kind of like the new anti theft mode the new chargers and challengers have, where the car will just roll at idle.

I don't wanna replace the throttle body, since I'm shot-gunning it at this point, but that was also something I had messed with, but all I did was hit it with throttle body cleaner, and wipe it down. I didn't take it apart or do anything weird to it.
Was this
answer
helpful?
Yes
No
Tuesday, March 30th, 2021 AT 9:20 PM
Tiny
JACOBANDNICKOLAS
  • MECHANIC
  • 109,700 POSTS
Hi,

It could even be an issue with the accelerator pedal position sensor. However, it should have set a code. Do you still have no codes? Did you scan the can bus?

You mentioned the runner valve was sticking. Usually, the intake needs replaced. Were you able to get them taken care of?

Joe
Was this
answer
helpful?
Yes
No
Wednesday, March 31st, 2021 AT 5:24 PM
Tiny
KUIPER94
  • MEMBER
  • 12 POSTS
Joe,

I don't think it's necessarily an accelerator pedal issue, since I was able to relearn it's position without issue. Plus, it works all the time, except the stall condition. As for codes, I have nothing. Currently I do have a code for a MAP sensor, since I have it unplugged (It's for some reason the only way I can get the car to start back up once it has it's stall condition).

As for the short runner valves sticking, they've cleared up, I'm pretty sure they were sticky cause I washed the greaseoil residue off of them. Since rubber and plastic have a weird friction type thing going on. They move freely now that I hit them with some spray lube.
Was this
answer
helpful?
Yes
No
Wednesday, March 31st, 2021 AT 10:00 PM
Tiny
JACOBANDNICKOLAS
  • MECHANIC
  • 109,700 POSTS
When you disconnect the MAP, the computer goes into a predetermined setting so the vehicle runs. Have you replaced the MAP?
Was this
answer
helpful?
Yes
No
Thursday, April 1st, 2021 AT 6:20 PM
Tiny
KUIPER94
  • MEMBER
  • 12 POSTS
So, a small update: I'm going to shift towards troubleshooting a CAN bus issue. Since I have multiple comm faults reported in Witech when I did a data dump the other night. Additionally the WCM doesn't know what it's VIN is. Most of the comm faults are on CAN B, but I do have one on CAN C.

Either way, not sure where the P0300 came from, the engine absolutely isn't misfiring. But if anyone knows how to get the Witech Micropod 2 to show oscilloscope data, it would be greatly appreciated, since it has access to the CAN high, and low pins. I just don't have a scope.

Also, yes I've replaced the MAP twice.
Was this
answer
helpful?
Yes
No
Friday, April 2nd, 2021 AT 10:06 PM
Tiny
JACOBANDNICKOLAS
  • MECHANIC
  • 109,700 POSTS
Hi,

I'm not familiar with Witech. Sorry about that.

If you look at the pics below, I included the wiring schematic for CAN B. I cut the pics in half to make them readable. I overlapped them so you can follow them easier.

I don't know if you need them, but I figured I would add them for you.

Joe
Was this
answer
helpful?
Yes
No
Saturday, April 3rd, 2021 AT 9:00 PM
Tiny
KUIPER94
  • MEMBER
  • 12 POSTS
Is it possible that the turn signal lights (they're switchback white amber LEDs, with a resistor pack inline) are causing my car to stall out somehow? For the last week I've been driving without them, and the car has worked fine, no issues.

Some more things I'd like to bring up, as I've read about this issue in Buicks, and Chevrolets that it could be related to a switch, or relay in the ignition, or some other power draw. I've attached the HDLP harness which is what I was using to troubleshoot what's connected to the TIPM, as that's where my troubleshooting continued to. It's also what lead me to disconnect the turn signal lamps.

The reason I bring this harness up is because although the Dash cluster is not on the CAN C topology, it is still connected to the HDLP harness. Additionally, I have the issue described by this guy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uGlqG_HJpwI but have not gone through repairing
replacing the dash cluster. I never figured it was a big deal. But that said, basically the only thing that works in my dash is the odometer, and some of the lights (check engine, ABS, ESP, and parking brake light).

Could the dash be causing interference in the electrical loop? I mean as for right now the car works fine, I got a whole week without any issues, but I don't have turn signal lamps, and I'm just wondering if that's just a symptom of another issue hidden underneath.

Thank you guys very much for your patience, and help.
Was this
answer
helpful?
Yes
No
Monday, May 10th, 2021 AT 11:22 AM

Please login or register to post a reply.

Sponsored links