Inner tie rod loose?

Tiny
BHAMDOC1973
  • MEMBER
  • 2014 HONDA ACCORD
  • V6
  • 2WD
  • AUTOMATIC
  • 159,000 MILES
Shook wheel to see if any play is there as car has a vibration, noticed with my hand that the movement around the outer tie rods. Ordered a kit, installed it, outer was 50% bad I would say, inner would not stay up if left alone, would drop but no play in it, so I put all back, shook wheel again and 59% less play is there and sounds like coming from inner. Usually is they don't hold up on their own and just lay down when left in the air, is that usually an indicator, they are bad?
Friday, December 8th, 2023 AT 2:24 PM

4 Replies

Tiny
CARADIODOC
  • MECHANIC
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I haven't ever heard that. On some older import models, the large nut around the inner's ball and socket is adjustable. You're supposed to use a fish scale to measure the force needed to make it swivel and keep tightening that nut until the needed force is achieved. That is a one-time adjustment when a new inner tie rod end is being installed. It isn't a maintenance item that needs to be checked later.

On domestic models, that force is called "preload" and is set during its manufacture. It's not adjustable. Over time they do loosen up, but the only thing we look for is if you can feel looseness, or knocking, when you try to gently turn a wheel left and right when the tire is off the ground. If there's no slop, or looseness, replacement is not justified.

I'm not clear from your description if there is or is not some sound coming from an inner tie rod end. If one is worn, you might hear a clunking sound when driving over bumpy roads.

As for a vibration, that is not caused by steering components. A sloppy tie rod end or a worn ball joint can allow steering and suspension parts to make noises and let other parts, like spindles and wheels move around, but the underlying vibration has to be caused by something that is rotating.

The way you're thinking of an inner tie rod end holding itself up on its own would require you to disconnect it from the outer tie rod end and remove the boot to inspect it for looseness or wear. That is never done during any inspection. It's only the in and out play we're looking for, and it has to be bad enough to feel by hand. Tie rod ends and ball joints are good or "worn". There's no in-between, or percentages. To say that a different way, there's no gray area when it comes to an inspection. A part is either acceptable to keep in service, or it must be replaced. Any gray area might consist of "how bad is bad". For my own vehicles, I know what I can ignore for a little while, but I would never leave that up to a customer. A better answer would be how is it going to affect an alignment? "Toe" and "total toe" are the angles affected by tie rod ends and ball joints. Those are the last angles to be adjusted during the alignment, but they have probably the biggest effect on tire wear, at least as far as what shows up first. A typical total toe spec is 1/16" toe-in, plus or minus 1/16". A tie rod end with enough play to feel can allow toe on that wheel to change well over 1/4". Being unable to hold total toe within specs will lead to miserable tire wear long before the part separates. Due to the inability to hold the alignment in specs is why a conscientious alignment specialist won't perform the alignment unless the worn parts are replaced. Otherwise we'd be taking money for a service we know we can't deliver.

Let me know if that helps or if I'm not understanding the problem correctly.
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Friday, December 8th, 2023 AT 4:03 PM
Tiny
BHAMDOC1973
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Just removed it, has a lot of play. Installed a new one and the wheel is now solid no play. Thanks for your help. Yes, the tire has an outer edge that is worn.
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Friday, December 8th, 2023 AT 4:26 PM
Tiny
CARADIODOC
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Dandy. Are you referring to the inner tie rod end? If so, did the instructions mention using the fish scale? I'm suspicious that went away as far back as the early '90s, so yours would be a simple bolt-on part.

Regardless, the car will need to be aligned. The best you can hope for is if you started with a steering wheel that was centered when driving straight ahead, and you replace tie rod end(s) on only one side, you can readjust it until the steering wheel is straight again. If you have to replace tie rod ends on the other side, don't start that project until you have the first side done and a straight steering wheel. That way, when all parts are replaced and adjusted, total toe will be so close to specs that driving to the alignment shop will not be a frightful event. The car will handle reasonably well too.

Another point of common confusion refers to the tire wear you might be seeing. "Camber" is the inward or outward tilt of the wheel, as viewed from in front of the car looking back at the wheel. Positive camber means the wheel is tipped out on top. That's the most common as it places the vehicle's weight directly over the wheel bearing. When it's tipped out too far, that tire will run more on the outer edge of the tread and wear that area faster. The clue here is that wear will be excessive, but smooth, and it only affects that one tire.

Camber can be out of specs on both tires, and both can have wear on an edge of the tread, but each tire is only affected by its adjustment.

Toe is different. Individual toe can be off on one or both tires. If only on one, the steering wheel will be off-center. If it's off on both, such as when multiple parts have been replaced, it's anyone's guess where the steering wheel will be, but the important point is total toe is out of specs. Total toe always affects both tires on that axle equally. You have to turn the steering wheel to one side to make toe on each wheel equal so the car goes straight, and that can make the steering wheel off-center. If, for example, there's too much total toe-out, the wheels are both steering away from the center of the car. The tires will walk away until the sidewalls can't flex anymore, then they'll snap back and start all over. That scrubbing action is what sets up the feathered pattern we look for. Remember, that pattern will show up on both tires, but one can be worse than the other depending on whether camber is correct or not. You can usually see the featheredging, but if not, lightly run your fingertips over the tread. The block of rubber will have a raised side and a worn side. As you run your fingers, they'll run easily one way, but the other way they'll catch on the sharp edges. I used to be able to know if total toe was too much in or out based on the direction I ran my hand around the tire and across it, but it's been too long now to remember. The point of my sad story is if you feel that featheredge, or see accelerated wear on one edge, the car needs to be aligned.

If you're interested, here's a link to an article that does a better job of explaining tire wear patterns:

https://www.2carpros.com/articles/how-car-tires-work

Let me know if you have other concerns or when the alignment is finished.
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Friday, December 8th, 2023 AT 5:19 PM
Tiny
BHAMDOC1973
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Yes, sir all good, I always do one side at a time and try to my best to keep steering straight, thanks for your help. This was a bolt on inner tie rod.
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Friday, December 8th, 2023 AT 5:27 PM

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