Has spark, no power to fuel pump or injectors

Tiny
93 CIVIC DX
  • MEMBER
  • 1993 HONDA CIVIC
  • 1.5L
  • 4 CYL
  • 2WD
  • 250,000 MILES
DX model. The codes, if any, were erased when the battery was disconnected to replace electrical parts. We assumed the igniter or coil went bad when the car shut off while driving. Actually shut off in drive at a stop light. I replaced the ECM after replacing pretty much everything else.
I have replaced everything I could think of that would have anything to do with the car running. New battery, fuel pump, fuel filter, pgmfi main relay (twice), coil, igniter (ignition module), complete ignition switch, all fuses checked were good but replaced anyway, known good distributor, distributor cap, rotor button, spark plugs, plug wires. The alternator, starter, timing belt and tension-er, all seals and gaskets, tie rod ends, steering rack, front wheel bearings, rotors, brake pads and shoes, lug studs, radiator, all hoses, belts, CV axles, engines mounts, and other stuff I cannot think of right now were changed prior to the engine dying.
What I have determined is, either the old computer quit working while the car was running, and the new computer was bad to start with, or a wire that controls the fuel pump signal and the fuel injector signal has quit.
I have spark at the spark plugs. The main relay does not click when the ignition switch is turned on. I jumper wired the main relay pins 1-3-5-7 and 2-8 with the relay plugged in and unplugged. The fuel pump will come on. I can hear the pump humming and can hear fuel flowing through the fuel return line under hood. The yellow/black wire at the fuel injectors get power (these things occur only while jumpered). Without jumper wires I am getting battery volts at the main relay pin #s 1, 3, 5, 8, and #6 (8.69 volts while cranking). The check engine light stays on when pump is off. It goes out when pump is on, only while jumper wired. I checked for power at the other wire at the injectors with a test light, while jumpered, and they do not get power. Switch on, and while cranking. No flash of the test light. I read somewhere on the net that possibly the ECM is not grounding pin #8 at the main relay. Pin #7 at the main relay doesn't have power unless jumpered. The engine turns over but will not run because the injectors will not do their thing. I do not have a field service manual. (I know I need one for testing). I do have a Haynes manual but it does not go in depth for test procedures for this.
Why will the ECM not ground the other wire at the fuel injectors?
I also cleaned and tightened the ground connection at the thermostat housing.
What am I missing?
Wednesday, August 8th, 2018 AT 8:13 AM

26 Replies

Tiny
KEN L
  • MASTER CERTIFIED MECHANIC
  • 48,360 POSTS
Hello, this sounds like you have a bad ground or power feed to the computer or the computer is bad. So to be sure lets use this guide and the engine wiring diagrams below to help you see how the system works and to see which wires to test.

https://www.2carpros.com/articles/how-to-check-wiring

The PCM is behind the right kick panel.

Check out the diagrams (below). Please run this test and get back to us.

Cheers, Ken
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Thursday, August 9th, 2018 AT 3:32 PM
Tiny
93 CIVIC DX
  • MEMBER
  • 22 POSTS
Thanks for responding. I am sure you have much better things to do!
I read what you sent, and studied the diagrams. The Haynes manual has the same ones. Just not in color. I am not sure if you meant to follow the test for a cam angle sensor or to "figure out" which sensor to test on my own. My 1993 Civic has a distributor with a built in crank sensor, but I do not think it has a cam angle sensor. The crank sensor has battery voltage.
I checked all of the ECM harness pins for voltage. The ones that should have power, do have power with the ignition switch on. I think. I do not know which one is supposed to have battery voltage with ignition switch on.
I have battery voltage at pgmfi main relay on pins #1, 3, 5, 8. And pin#6 while cranking.
I did continuity tests from pgmfi main relay pin #2 to ECM harness pin #A23. (Ground) infinite resistance.
Continuity test from pgmfi main relay pin #3 to ECM harness pin #A25 & B1. Infinite resistance. A25 and B1 have battery voltage.
Continuity test from main relay pin #8 to ECM pin #A7 & A8. Infinite resistance.
A7 and A8 do not have battery voltage at ECM harness, with ignition switch in on position. But pin #8 at pgmfi main relay does have battery voltage, ignition switch on. Is that normal?
I checked all four fuel injector harness plugs for voltage. The yellow/black wires at injector plugs have 12 volts, ignition switch on.
The other wires at fuel injector harness plugs have 0.02 volts, ignition switch on. The fuel injector harness plugs are getting 12 volts now without jumpering the pgmfi main relay. They weren't getting voltage before without jumper wiring main relay.
The fuel pump still will not come on without jumper wiring the main relay, ignition switch on. If I jumper wire pin#5 to pin #7 the fuel pump will work.
I have spark at the spark plugs.
Engine rotates but will not run. For some reason the ECM is not grounding the fuel injectors. I have looked around under the hood for loose wires but do not see any.
Do you have any written tests that have to do with the ECM grounding the fuel injectors?
I wrote down the ECM pin #s and if they have voltage with the ignition switch on. If you need them I will send them.
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Friday, August 10th, 2018 AT 10:13 AM
Tiny
93 CIVIC DX
  • MEMBER
  • 22 POSTS
I also did continuity tests from fuel injector harness wires to ECM harness. All were infinite resistance.
(I believe I am saying that right? Infinite resistance means they are continuous wires with no breaks?)
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Friday, August 10th, 2018 AT 10:20 AM
Tiny
93 CIVIC DX
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  • 22 POSTS
Here are the ECM harness pin voltage records, ignition switch on. The battery was at 11.78 volts when I did these checks. I have since charged it.
A1, brown, fuel injector #1, 11.78 volts.
A2, yel, inj#4, 11.77 volts.
A3, red, inj#2, 11.77 volts.
A4, not used, no wire.
A5, lt blu, inj#3, 11.76 volts.
A6, org/blk, O2 sensor, 11.76
A7, grn/yel, pin 8 at main relay, NO POWER
A8, grn/yel, pin8 main relay, NO POWER.
A9, grn/wht, EACV solenoid, 11.76 volts.
A10, not used
A11 not used
A12, yel/grn, radiator fan relay UH fuse box, 11.76
A13, grn/org, check engine indicator inst cluster, 11.68
A14, not used
A15, blk/red, AC comp clutch relay, 11.73
A16, white, alternator, 11.75 hot all the time, switch OFF
A17, lt grn, lock up control solenoid, NO POWER.
A18, not used
A19, yel, lock up control solenoid, NO POWER
A20, red, purge control solenoid, 11.78
A21, IGP1, red/grn, dist ignition input signal, 11.38
A22, IGP2, red/grn, dist ign input signal, 11.38
A23, blk, pin#2 MainRelay grnd, NO POWER
A24, blk, VSS, NO POWER
A25, yel/blk, main relay pin #3, 11.77
A26, blk/red, data link groundH, NO POWER

B1, yel/blk, Main Relay pin #3,
11.78 volts
B2, org/blk, grnd H,
NO POWER
B3, green, shift position indicator inst cluster, 10.66
B4, grn/blk, shift posItion indicator inst cluster,
NO POWER
B5, blu/red, AC pressure switch, 11.49
B6, not used
B7, green, shift position indicator imst cluster
NO POWER
B8, brown, power sterring pressure switch, NO POWER
B9, blu/wht, Main Relay pin #6, fuse #18, NO POWER
B10, ye/grn, VSS, 4.9 volts
B11, orange, distributor CYL sensor, NO POWER
B12, white, dist CYL sensor,
NO POWER
B13, org/grn, dist TDC sensor
NO POWER
B14, wht/blu, dist TDC sensor
NO POWER
B15, blu, dist CRANK sensor,
NO POWER
B16, blu/yel, CRANK sensor
NO POWER

D1, wht/blu, fuse #32 UH fuse box, hot at all times,
11.90 volts
D2, grn/wht, NO POWER
D3, not used
D4, brown, service conn, ABS control, NO POWER
D5 not used
D6, book says goes to oil pressure switch B, but the pin is empty on my harness
D7, lt blu, data link conn,
NO POWER
D8, not used
D9, pink, Alternator,
NO POWER
D10, grn/ref, ELD Unit UH fuse box, NO POWER
D11, pnk/blk, TPS, NO POWER
D12, not used
D13, red/wht, coolant temp sensor, NO POWER
D14, white, O2sensor,
NO POWER
D15, red/yel, IAT sensor,
NO POWER
D16, not used
D17, pnk/wht, MAP sensor
NO POWER
D18, wht/red, gear shift interlock control unit 3.19volts
D19yel/grn, MAP sensor
NO POWER
D20, yel/wht, TPS,
NO POWER
D21, blue, MAP sensor,
NO POWER
D22, grn/wht, coolant temp, IAT, service conn, O2 sensor, no power

I have no idea if my findings are "normal". I hope this helps you in determining where to go next.
Thank you again!
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Friday, August 10th, 2018 AT 11:20 AM
Tiny
KEN L
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Infinite resistance means open circuit, no connection. Can you go over things again to see if there are open circuits if so you have found the problem?
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Friday, August 10th, 2018 AT 11:37 AM
Tiny
93 CIVIC DX
  • MEMBER
  • 22 POSTS
Okay. What I meant was the wires were good, no breaks in them from one end to the other. When I ohmed them they measured 0.0 ohms. My bad.
A correction of information: I remeasured voltage at pgmfi main relay pin #8 (remeasured all of them but #8 changed or I mis-measured the first time.)
pin #8 has 0.75 volts, ignition switch on, and 0.75 volts while cranking. Is that normal?
The first time I tested the main relay pins I do not remember if I used a test light or voltmeter (probably test light) to see if the main relay pins had power. This time I used a voltmeter positioned in the wire entry side of the harness while the relay was plugged in.
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Friday, August 10th, 2018 AT 12:48 PM
Tiny
93 CIVIC DX
  • MEMBER
  • 22 POSTS
Update: I grounded ECM pin A7 with a straight pin attached to a length of wire. I stuck it into wire entry side of ECM harness. Ignition switch on, fuel pump came on but CEL did not go off. Engine did not run.
I also hooked a test light to battery (+) and touched the wires (not the yellow/black ones) at the unplugged fuel injector plugs. Ignition switch on. The test light faintly lit up at each injector plug.
I can make the fuel pump come on by jumper wiring the main relay pins, or grounding A7 at the ECM, but the CEL does not go off and the engine does not run.
I found these tests on the internet. Not sure what they're supposed to prove.
Thank you for your time.
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Friday, August 10th, 2018 AT 5:08 PM
Tiny
KEN L
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This sure sounds like the ECM is bad or it has a bad ground or power feed. Can you confirm he grounds and power feeds for the ECM? Also, you say pin #8 at the PGMFI relay but I only see 7 pins? Can you check the ground front the battery to the body and engine block? This can cause the issue as well.
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Saturday, August 11th, 2018 AT 11:31 AM
Tiny
93 CIVIC DX
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  • 22 POSTS
I purchased a new ECM from AutoZone for $310.00. I hope its not bad.
I will measure ohms at the ECM pin numbers that are meant for ground and verify if they are grounded or not.
There is no main relay #4 pin on 1992-1995 Honda's. No #6 pin on 88-91 Honda's. On one side of the main relay, the pins are 1, 3, 5, 7. On the other side they are 2, 6, 8. I am getting battery voltage on #1, 3, 5. #6 is only supposed to get voltage while cranking. Mine gets 8.69 volts while cranking. No volts when ignition switch is in "on" position. #7 goes to the fuel pump and it is supposed to have battery voltage to run the pump. #7 is not getting power. I do not know why. I can jumper-wire pin #5 to #7 and give #7 power that way. The pump will come on and I can hear fuel flowing through the feed and return lines at the fuel rail but the CEL does not go off and the engine will not run. #8 had 0.75 volts both with switch "on" and 0.75 volts while cranking. I do not know if that is "normal" voltage for that pin or not. I think #8 is supposed to be grounded by the ECM while cranking to make the injectors work. The fuel injectors are getting battery voltage on the yellow/black wires. The other wire at the fuel injector, on each injector, faintly lit the test light when I hooked the test light to battery (+) and stuck the probe end in the injector harness. I then cranked the engine over. I had the fuel pump jumpered while doing this. Still no joy.
I sent you a list with all the ECM pin #s with wire color, what it connects to, and if each pin had voltage and how much voltage it had.
If the battery ground was not connected good the engine would not turn over, or turn over very slowly. Correct?
I need a flow chart to follow in diagnosing the ECM. What I really need is a 1992-1995 Honda Civic Field Service Manual. The cheapest one I found online was a used one for $150.00. New ones were $200.00. I do not have that kind of cash right now. I have spent a ton of money on this old car already. But I reckon I am going to have to find it! Ha!
Thank you for responding.
I do appreciate it!
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Saturday, August 11th, 2018 AT 6:26 PM
Tiny
93 CIVIC DX
  • MEMBER
  • 22 POSTS
I just read on the internet that the pgmfi main relay pin #8 is supposed to be grounded by the ECM. The ECM is also supposed to supply 12 volts (battery voltage) to pin #8 while cranking. My main relay pin #8 has 0.75 volt with ignition switch "on", and 0.75 volt while cranking. I hope this info helps you help me.
I will check the ECM pins that pertain to grounding for continuity ASAP.
Thank you for helping me!
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Saturday, August 11th, 2018 AT 8:33 PM
Tiny
KEN L
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Oh ya, we can get you fixed up. The voltage while cranking is low. I am wondering if the battery is good. Here is a simple test you can do to see if the battery passes:

https://www.2carpros.com/articles/car-battery-load-test

Please run down this guide and report back.

Also, lets check the ignition switch to make sure it is putting power out like it should. Here is the switch wiring diagrams.

Cheers, Ken
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Sunday, August 12th, 2018 AT 11:59 AM
Tiny
93 CIVIC DX
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  • 22 POSTS
Brand new five year warranty battery. The battery voltage was a little low because I had been trying to crank the car and did not recharge it before testing voltage at ECM pins. I had forgotten to. It was just under 12 volts. Still cranked over easily with that.
Brand new complete ignition switch. Brand new ECM. Brand new pgmfi main relay. I have pretty much replaced everything that has to do with the engine starting and running.
I will test ECM pins for ground continuity ASAP.
Thank you.
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Tuesday, August 14th, 2018 AT 6:18 PM
Tiny
93 CIVIC DX
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  • 22 POSTS
Also, main relay pins #1, 3, 5 have battery voltage. #6 has 8.69 while cranking. #7 should have battery voltage to power the fuel pump. It does not. #8 was the only one that "wrong". 0.75 volts. I read its supposed to have battery voltage when cranking.
Any ideas on that?
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Tuesday, August 14th, 2018 AT 6:23 PM
Tiny
KEN L
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For the fuel pump I see #4 as the fuel pump feed off of the PGMFI relay yellow and green wire correct?
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Thursday, August 16th, 2018 AT 10:46 AM
Tiny
93 CIVIC DX
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The yellow/green wire connects pin #7 to the fuel pump harness. No #4 pin on 92-95 Civics. #7 is not getting power at the main relay.
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Thursday, August 16th, 2018 AT 4:51 PM
Tiny
93 CIVIC DX
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  • 22 POSTS
Also, the main relay should click when the ignition switch is turned to on. Mine does not click at all. The CEL stays on, ignition switch on.
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Thursday, August 16th, 2018 AT 4:57 PM
Tiny
KEN L
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#7 at the PGM FI gets power for the ECU fuse #31. Do you have power there?

https://www.2carpros.com/articles/how-to-use-a-test-light-circuit-tester

Please run down this guide and report back.

Cheers, Ken
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Friday, August 17th, 2018 AT 10:07 AM
Tiny
93 CIVIC DX
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Yes, ECU fuse #31 under hood fuse box, 15amp, has battery voltage. I checked all the fuses and they were all good. Just as a precaution I changed #31, #24 15amp ACG fuse, & #18 7.5amp, starter signal fuse with known good fuses. They all have battery voltage, switch on. I have battery voltage at main relay pin #s 1, 3, 5. #7 should get battery voltage from inside the relay. But it does not get power at all unless I jumper wire it from pin #5. Then the fuel pump hums and pumps fuel to the fuel rail. The injectors will not do there thing though. So the engine will not run.
Thank you for your interest.
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Friday, August 17th, 2018 AT 10:51 AM
Tiny
KEN L
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So #7 terminal has power at the PGMFI relay?
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Friday, August 17th, 2018 AT 11:02 AM
Tiny
93 CIVIC DX
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Fuse #31 connects to ECU at D1. It has battery voltage there at all times.
#7 does not have voltage.
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Friday, August 17th, 2018 AT 11:07 AM

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