TPS has 5v in ground wire?

Hello LESLIE PAYNE,

Unfortunately, I don't have the information available to me for either of those 2 vehicles.

But I will help you the best I can.

The fan might be related, but shifting issues is common with an incorrectly calibrated TPS.

When the sensors were put in, did they ever calibrate them?

Key on engine off-Signal wire should be 0.48-0.50 volts. As you open the throttle the voltage on the signal wire will increase.

Whatever the signal wire has for voltage, the ground will have the remaining voltage.

Most sensors have wider mounting holes, like oval shaped, to allow you to move it around to calibrate it.

Can you send me a few pictures of the sensor and the wires coming out of it? I can use this information to help you better.

If you can, loosen mounting screws for sensor just enough so the sensor will twist but still has a little drag. This is so you can do the calibration in increments without it moving around too much.

Using your multimeter, check the voltage on the signal wire.

Now watch the voltage and use a twisting motion on the sensor and see if the voltage is changing.

If it is, see if you can get the voltage between 0.48-0.50 volts.

Remember KOEO-Key On Engine Off and don't mess with the throttle, leave it closed, just turn the sensor itself.

Let me know how it goes and also let me know if you see the mounting holes and they are not wider or oval shaped.

Also, if you can send me some pics I will look and see what I can find for information for you. Closest vehicle information I have is for the Kia Rio. It has a 1.6L so the wiring might be similar. Try taking a pic of the wires showing their color and the mounting position of the sensor.

Thank you,
Brendon

Hello LESLIE PAYNE,

Oh, I see. Yes, if there is power on the ground the ground may not be connected. It may also mean the sensor is bad but since this is the third sensor, I doubt it is the issue. However, if you can look on it and give me a name of the company that manufactured it, I might be able to find information from the manufacturer.

In the Kia Rio, the only smaller Kia I have information for, the ground goes directly to the PCM.

The PCM on this vehicle is in the left kick panel. It may also be directly behind your car battery.

Can you tell me more about the other issues are you having? They may all be connected. Since you are having shifting problems, a ground that goes to the PCM but doesn't sound like it is connected at all and then your fan isn't working. I am wondering if the PCM is bad.

Let's try this something, if the ground is bad, we can run a new temporary one and see if anything changes.

You can do this by using a sewing needle and some wire. Connect the wire to the needle either by soldering it to it or see if you can put a few strands through the eyelet and twist it good so it doesn't come loose.

With the key off, stick the needle into the back of the connector where the ground wire goes in while the connector is connected to the sensor. Then take the other end of the wire and attach it to battery ground. Turn the key on engine off and measure signal wire voltage and see if the signal changes.

Here is an article on what to look for when check wiring:
https://www.2carpros.com/articles/how-to-check-wiring

I would inspect the harness for the TPS as much as you can see. Also take note of the color. The color of the ground wire at the connector should be the same color at the PCM.

You can disconnect the battery if you find the PCM and remove the connector that has that color wire going to it. Set multimeter on ohms or the Omega symbol. Then using a pin again, one pushed into the connector on the ground wire at the sensor and push the other into the back of the PCM connector. Make sure the battery is disconnected before removing the PCM connector. See if either you have resistance, or it says OL or I or if the wire is connected it might beep and give you a reading.
Let me know what you find.

I am going to add the wiring diagram from this vehicle for you. I have highlighted the circuit in question. I can't find anything on the Kia Morning, but I did find some information on bad PCM's in the Kia Picanto. Here is the link to their site:
https://www.700r4transmissionhq.com/kia-picanto-bad-ecm-symptoms/

I will continue to look and see what information I can come up with for you.

Please let me know if you have any issues seeing the information I am adding in your country.

Let me know how it goes.

Thank you,
Brendon

Hello LESLIE PAYNE,

I forgot to add this article for you in my last response and wanted to make sure you got it. Here it is:
https://autolabscopediagnostics.net/tpsdroptest.htm

Also here is a video that shows some testing:
https://youtu.be/0geZADn4xAk

When you are testing the sensor, are you back probing the connector, or is it unplugged, and you are testing at the end of the connector?

If you haven't, I would unplug it and test the ground at the connector on the end of the harness. If you still have voltage, there is a short to power somewhere. If it only has voltage on the ground when plugged in, the sensor is shorted internally.

Once we figure out what is causing the voltage on the ground, we can then calibrate it but no it isn't going to change anything right now.

Hope this helps.

Thank you,
Brendon

Hello LESLIE PAYNE,

Wow. You are awesome! Thank you so much for all the great information! Yes, that additional wire changes things. I agree it may be the whole problem. They may have had a bad wire.

1. Yes, they can be in different positions. The 2004 Kia Optima 2.4L and the 2004 Kia Rio 1.6L has the signal on one end, power in the middle and ground on the end. I have added an image of the connector for each for you.

2. Yes it will run but poorly. Excessive fuel consumption, lack of power, check engine light on, poor shifting, poor idle, things like that.

3. From what I can find The Kia morning is used in South Korea and a few other countries. It was re-named the Kia Picanto for the Middle East and the rest of the world so yes; from what I am finding they are the same vehicle.

Can you follow the white wire and see where it goes? Is it going from the connector and spliced back into the yellow wire further down or is it down the whole harness, at least as far as you can see?

There are four wire Throttle Position Sensors. Instead of having one coil it will have 2 inside but use the same power and ground wire. This provides better accuracy. I will add a connector end view of a four-wire sensor that Kia uses in the Sedona. The second signal wire would have went to something called an idle switch. This is used to tell the computer the throttle plate is closed and to turn on the Idle Air Control or IAC. This allows the vehicle to idle without stalling.

I have a couple guys helping get some information together for your vehicle so I can send you a wiring diagram. As soon as I get one, I will send it right over for you.

The Blue wire with tan tracer sounds like it is your constant 5v supply.

The black wire seems like it's your ground and the 0.1 volts is normal and exactly what we want to see.

The signal wire seems like it is sending the proper signal, but seems like it is out of range. If there is any connection it that wire, it will increase the resistance, which would reduce voltage. The voltage already seems lower than it should be with the throttle closed.

If it is already low at the sensor, the computer is going to get the wrong reading and won't be able to calculate load on the engine making it respond incorrectly to throttle angle changes.

With the connector disconnected, you should have only one wire with around 5 volts.

Since you have over 5 volts on that signal wire, I think the best thing is to figure out where both of those wires are going.

Does the white wire follow the yellow into the vehicle or is it spliced into the yellow further down?

If it is a four-wire sensor, you would have 2 signal wires. One wire will increase in voltage and the other will decrease in voltage.

I know you have a few other issues, but I think, especially with wiring, we need to address one thing at a time especially because we have limited information. This TPS issue can cause a lot of issues so we need to figure out what is going on with that and see how the vehicle responds and then we can look at the other things.

I am more than happy to help you with anything on your vehicle, but we need to maintain a systematic approach. This is especially important when dealing with wiring issues.

As soon as I get some more information, which should be today, we can see more of what is going on.

I am using every resource I have to get as much information to you as possible.

If there is an issue at the PCM Connector because of someone's wiring, whatever they did, it could be causing the other issues.

If you can try to follow those 2 wires, the white and the yellow, and see where they go or if they are spliced together that will help us understand more of why there are 2 wires.

Thank you,
Brendon

Hello LESLIE PAYNE,

Okay. I see. I didn't think about you having to get out in an emergency. So, let's pivot to the fan so it is drivable.

Unfortunately, things don't always convey well over text. I knew you meant the fan; I had thought there may have been a four wire TPS and someone converted it to a 3 wire maybe because they couldn't get the right part. But we know it splices back into the other wire about 3 feet down so that's not the case. But I will add more about this later.

The Fan:
The quickest way to jump the fan on is to jump terminals 87 and 30 on the cooling fan relay which should be in the engine compartment fuse/relay box. The terminals should be labeled on the relay. 87 should be 12 volts constant and 30 should go right to the fan.

You will need to make a fused jumper wire. I would use a 15-amp fuse and about 12†14-gauge wire. The fan is probably on the smaller side so you shouldn't need a lot of amperage to run it.

Something like this is what you want to use. (See Images)
https://www.amazon.com/VANTRONIK-Inline-Holder-Waterproof-16AWG/dp/B07MQZ9Q8L/ref=asc_df_B07MQZ9Q8L?tag=bingshoppinga-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=80333139366608&hvnetw=o&hvqmt=e&hvbmt=be&hvdev=c&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=&hvtargid=pla-4583932702338268&psc=1

Then use some male blade connectors on each end. Depending on the size of the connectors on the relay you will need to get something like these with some heat shrink tubing.

LINKS:

https://belmetric.com/e308smlslvr-6-3mm-uninsulated-male-spade-with-tab-20-16-gauge/?sku=E308SMLSLVR&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI8-_MorOLgAMV4g9lCh2Oewb6EAQYAyABEgIvfPD_BwE

https://www.amazon.com/Baomain-Splice-Terminals-connector-insulated/dp/B01MQ2VUGC/ref=asc_df_B01MQ2VUGC/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=647189821677&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=16238959337497063351&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9005097&hvtargid=pla-1972751541595&psc=1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI8-_MorOLgAMV4g9lCh2Oewb6EAQYCCABEgK2WPD_BwE

You can also use a fuse tap. (See image)
Link: https://www.summitracing.com/parts/pco-1593kt?seid=srese1&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIwpfy4bSLgAMVAQxlCh392QqqEAQYBiABEgIDSvD_BwE

This will go on the side of the fuse that is on the circuit side. You can find this by removing the fuse, turning on the key and using a test light to check for power. One side will have it, the other will not. This is where you want the fuse tap, so it is protected by the fuse.

Something like this would work as well:
https://www.autozone.com/electrical-and-lighting/fuse-and-accessories/p/bussmann-atm-fuse-tap/32416_0_0?spps.s=6774&cmpid=LIA:US:EN:AD:NL:1000000:ELC:19486091402&&CATARGETID=120054150001289073&CADevice=c&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIwpfy4bSLgAMVAQxlCh392QqqEAQYByABEgJ09_D_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

Both of these methods will use the existing ground. So, splice this wire into the power side of the fan. If it won't operate check the ground. You may need to run a new one to the lower radiator support temporarily.

I am not sure what you have available to you, so I tried supplying you with as many ideas as possible.

I wouldn't mess with temp sensor because the PCM needs to see a certain voltage to say, hey turn on the fans. So, we would need to add a resistor to the circuit to get the right voltage to the computer. But we don't know what that value is, and we have no diagram. I will continue to look though.

There are four wire temperature sensors, but there are no diagrams anywhere. I have been looking at tons of vehicles wiring diagrams to see if they have a four-wire sensor, to see where they would go but no luck yet.

Most common reason for cooling fans not coming on is low coolant, so check that if you haven't already. If it is just a little low, it could cause there to be air around the temperature sensor which would make it read incorrectly and not turn the fans on.

I would check all your fuses if you haven't already.

This is a lot of information so try some of these and see if you have or can get any of these things. Let me know how it goes or if you need any help.

For now, I am going to keep working on obtaining some wiring diagrams for the TPS and a PCM location. I will send a separate response because this one is already getting really long.

Thank you,
Brendon

Hello LESLIE PAYNE,

The white wire is not supposed to be there, and all the other wires are in their proper location.

Blue-Supplies 5 volts
Black-Supplies ground from the PCM, this should have 0.1 volts when plugged in.
Signal-If you increase idle speed a bit and now have 0.48 volts, which is exactly where it is supposed to be, then it sounds like it is not calibrated correctly for idle, or the sensor is possibly loose or defective. You may have also not have had a good enough connection.

This is the value you should be getting with the key on engine of and throttle blade closed.

Try doing the reading while shaking the harness to see if you get any fluctuations, with it connected.

All the plugged-in values appear to be normal now, yes.

The unplugged values are normal, except the 5 volts on the signal. The only wire that should have 5 volts is the blue wire.

Earlier you stated the white wire was spliced back into the yellow wire about 3 feet away, is that not the case? It sounds to me it is connected at the harness and runs along the yellow as far as you can follow it. Is that the case? Can you please clarify this for me?

"The added white wire appears to be spliced in at the brass pin inside of the connector and ties back into the yellow wire approximately 3" further along."

If it does splice back in, take a voltage reading at the splice with the sensor plugged in. See what you get for a reading.

We need to:
Figure out if the yellow wire is shorted to power somewhere &
We need to figure out where the power on the yellow wire is coming from when unplugged.

Yes. The 5.59 volts is a problem, there should be no power on that wire except when plugged in. It must be shorted somewhere. Which is probably messing with this sensor.

We need to find the source of the 5 volts on the signal wire it might be at the PCM, but it could be in the harness somewhere. It might in the harness.

Once we find the PCM, we can see if both the yellow and the white are attached at that point or if that white wire is going to something else. We can also check for excess resistance that might be causing the signal to drop by the time it gets to the PCM.

Here are the wiring diagrams for your courtesy of a very helpful co-worker. He found us the diagram for the sensor and the PCM. I also found a picture of the PCM from a 2005 Picanto. By the looks of it, it looks like it is on the firewall either in the engine compartment or behind the dash because of the way it appears to mount flat against something.

The picture I found was on eBay, so I contacted the seller to try to get him to tell me where it is located. Still awaiting a response.

I found a thread saying it was behind the passenger side of the dash. I would check again in this area. I would say remove the glove box if you can so you can get a better look behind there.

Finally, you said the blue wire is getting hot, but you sent me a picture of a different sensor with the word hot on it. So, is it this sensor in the photo getting hot or is the blue wire getting hot? Are both hot?

The image you sent in your last response looks like it might be Idle Air Control and would more than likely not only be in that same harness but maybe getting shorted out as well causing it to become hot. It is also related to the TPS.

I would pull back the harness in the picture you just sent me and see if anyone has done any wiring there as well or if any of the wire colors that match.

It's sounding more and more like you have a short in the engine harness or some issues possibly at the PCM connector.

You may need to pull this harness apart further and see if you can find any damaged wiring.

Thank you,
Brendon

Hello LESLIE PAYNE,

That is like a body control module. ETACS stands for Electronic Time and Alarm Control System. It will run things like wipers, door locks, courtesy lights etc. Unfortunately, it is not the PCM.

The numbers in the diagram are the terminal on the connector at the PCM. No, you will more than likely not see them on the connector.

Yes, you are correct, there is no yellow wire. But we don't need it because we know what the wires are from testing.

Yes, I am aware of what feet and inches are thank you for clarifying and yes, we are based in the United States. I wanted to know if it spliced back into the wire or it went off somewhere else, regardless of the length.

I found something that says normally on the KIA Picanto, the PCM is usually in the engine compartment. It can also be found sometimes on the passenger side under the dashboard or glove box.

Also, the guy from eBay I messaged finally answered me and said it's next to the engine. Not very helpful but looking more like it is in the engine compartment.

But let's pivot for a moment.

I think the 5 volts on the signal wire is normal because it is unplugged. The PCM is sending the voltage to detect a fault.

When unplugged, it is designed to place 5-volts on the signal wire to force a defective condition to be detected and set a fault code. Most engine management sensors are two-wire circuits that contain a 5-volt reference and a signal return wire or three-wire circuits that contain a 5-volt, signal return and auxiliary ground wire. So, if you disconnect the sensor, you should see 5-volts on the signal wire.

This is from multiple sources. It makes sense because once the sensor is plugged in, we are actually getting a reading from the sensor and the 5 volts disappears.

So, I think we need to plug the sensor back in. Then with the key on engine off, I want you to measure the voltage of the signal wire at the connector with it plugged in. Then measure the voltage past the repair on the wire. I want to see if the voltage is dropping. Ideally, I would like to check the whole wire but until the PCM is located, we will have to test as far down the wire as possible.

Allowable voltage drop on any connections on low-current circuits is 0.00v.

Because it has such a low voltage signal, the smallest crimp, connection etc. Can cause a drop in voltage. So, the end result is the PCM receives the lower voltage which tells it the throttle is in a different position than it is, based on the value it is receiving.

This can cause some of the issues you are experiencing.

Let me know what you get for readings.

If you could also, please take some photos of the engine compartment for me so I can see where things are and maybe I can help identify the PCM. Since I have no information at all on this vehicle this will help me help you.

As far as the fans are concerned, Fan 1 is a regular cooling fan or low speed, Fan 2 is for when A/C is on or high speed.

What is going on with it? Is the vehicle overheating? Does it come on when you turn on the A/C?

Is the gauge on the dash working?

If there is a pocket of air by the sensor, possibly from low coolant, the PCM won't know the right temperature and it won't turn the fans on. It will also make it, so it won't run correctly because it doesn't think it is up to operating temperature.

A bad relay could also cause the fans to not operate. You can try switching the 2 relays as long as they are exactly the same and see if the fan comes on.

I have added a couple of images for you.

First check both relay cavities that are circled in red and see if they have power with the key off. If not turn the key on engine off and see if they have power, then. This is Terminal 87 and is usually 12v from the battery. It might be switched on power on your vehicle, looks like it is the case on the KIA Rio.

Next check the terminal circled in blue in both relay cavities and make sure it does not have power, it shouldn't. This should be Terminal 30 and it should go right to the fan.

You can use your multimeter and put it on ohms and take one lead to terminal 30 and the other to power side of fan. You should have low resistance but not O.L, yours may also beep when you make a connection.

Then take a fused jumper, like mentioned earlier, and go from 87 to 30. This should turn on the fan. One relay may have to be installed to get power at another relay. So, start by checking with one of the relays still installed.

Let me know what you find and if you can get it running.

Thank you,
Brendon