Stalling

Tiny
AVENGERWEEZEL77
  • MEMBER
  • 2005 FORD FIVE HUNDRED
  • 3.0L
  • V6
  • 2WD
  • AUTOMATIC
  • 240,000 MILES
Hello everyone, I'll try to make this as short (yet detailed) as possible. The car stalls about 5 seconds after start up but will repeatedly do the same thing. I have replaced spark plugs, throttle body, fuel pressure sensor, and air filter. The only MIL code I'm getting with my Autel mk808 is p0453 Evap system pressure sensor/switch 'A' circuit high. After a few tries I decided to delete the existing DTCs and it started up and idles/drives great. Drove about a 16-mile trip and parked it (no MIL on). Once it was turned off and as soon as I try to restart it it idles perfect, but the code comes back on immediately. So, I assumed it was just some Evap thing going on and didn't worry about it. Well, two days later I went out to try and start from a very cold condition and the same thing started and ran for about 5 seconds and shut off. I have repeated this process two times or more and the same thing, if I delete the code, it'll seemingly drive cross country until I let it sit for a day or some and then same thing. Would this code actually cause a stall issue (I have done a lot of mechanic work and have never seen this issue)? I know if the code is there, I need to fix it regardless but I'm just making sure that sensor or wiring to the sensor could be my main culprit and hopefully resolve my issue. Thank you very much for any and all help you can give me and have a blessed day.
Sunday, January 23rd, 2022 AT 8:26 AM

27 Replies

Tiny
AL514
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Hello, this code is for the Fuel "Tank" pressure sensor. I stress the tank part because some people get it confused with the fuel rail pressure sensor. And yes, it is part of the Evap system, these sensors are extremely sensitive, especially on ford setups. Ford has a completely different evap system and it runs its self-tests differently than any other manufacture. The sensor is located on top of the fuel tank, fortunately for you, you can remove the rear seat to get to it instead of dropping the tank. So, the code is for Sensor High Input, meaning the signal is sending to the ECM is higher than it should be. This can be caused by a number of things, bad ground, short to reference voltage etc. What I would do before you go taking the seat out, is when it stalls again. check the reference voltage at another sensor. The easiest place would be at the Fuel rail pressure sensor. Where the fuel injectors are. Ill post wiring diagrams, because if the reference voltage is being pulled down by a shorted sensor, you'll know right away which sensor it is and what's going on. It may be setting the code for the Tank pressure sensor because they are so sensitive. It would be the first sensor to have an odd signal. So, the first diagram is for the Fuel Rail Pressure sensor. and just make sure there's a full 5 volts on this wire with the key on. The last diagram is the Fuel Tank Pressure sensor. The yellow/blue wire is the 5-volt reference wire, the grey/red is the signal return (ground). and the red/pink wire is the signal back to the ECM. The Ford systems run a total of 4 or 5 tests on the evap system at various times, it has to pass the first 2 vacuum decay tests to go on to the Vapor Generation tests. So, it is pretty complicated. It took me awhile to learn it all honestly. But this could be a bad ground, missing 5 volts, or bad signal at the ECM, or just a bad sensor so you'll have to do some testing with a multimeter at the sensor to be sure. I will post more information here and if you have any questions on testing let us know.

The reason it's setting the codes every few drive cycles is because that's when it will be running its self-tests.
This code also be a Canister Vent valve or Purge valve that is stuck open and that's why it's stalling out. The main cause of this code on Pro Demand seems to be the wiring harness back at the sensor itself, so you will have to pull the rear seat eventually and check out the wiring harness. You can find the sensor by wiring colors for it.
And since you mentioned you have an mk800 you can start by actually checking the data PID for the sensor. anything over 4.5volts is a concern. Thats with the engine running.
Another real quick test is to disconnect the purge valve and block off the intake manifold line to it. If the stalling stops, you know you're getting flow when you shouldn't. The last diagram shows the purge valve wiring colors. It's located in the engine compartment.

https://www.2carpros.com/articles/how-to-use-a-voltmeter

https://www.2carpros.com/articles/how-to-check-wiring
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Sunday, January 23rd, 2022 AT 9:21 AM
Tiny
AVENGERWEEZEL77
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Thank you for the very informative and detailed response. The car is about 40 minutes from my home at the moment. I figured I would go up there and reset the codes and drive it home to my shop so I can do more extensive tests with my multimeter that were suggested. Well, that didn't go so well since I deleted the code, and it would start and just shut off again. I'm not sure if I disconnected the battery the last time while trying to figure it out and I'm not sure if that matters. Anyways like a dummy I figured I'd just reset and roll-on home to the shop, so I didn't bring anything but my Audel with me to delete said code. I did get a picture of the EVAP system vapor pressure, but I'll be honest I'm still learning to read the values and what they mean sorry in advance. I also noticed (correct me if I'm wrong) that the barometric pressure seems to be very high. I'll have my guy go and trailer it back to my house so I can get at it with the multimeter. Again, thank you very much for the help and I'll keep you posted on any updates, and if possible, let me know what I'm looking at with the values in the pic. I tried to google for help but can't seem to find it.
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Sunday, January 23rd, 2022 AT 4:56 PM
Tiny
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The barometric pressure is correct. The atmosphere is about 14PSI. So that's correct, the Evap system vapor pressure is measured in H20, (water) this is because it's a wider range of pressure to be monitored. 16 inH20 is about 0.5psi. So very low. Also, just FYI, if you go to take the Fuel Tank Pressure sensor out, make sure you don't have a full tank of gas.
So, is it not drivable now? Just start and stall? If that's the case, the first thing I would do is block off the purge valve from the intake manifold and see how it runs. I'm wondering if your charcoal canister is full of liquid gas instead of just fuel vapors.
The vehicle usually won't purge at cold start up, but all systems are different. While the system is purging the Evap it also opens the canister vent valve and draws a small amount of oxygen from the vent valve that mixes with the fuel vapors and then is pulled into the intake manifold. If the charcoal canister is full of liquid gas and pulling liquid gas into the intake due to a failed purge valve that could flood the engine right out. Maybe take a look at the sparkplugs and see if they're fouled out. I'm going to take a look through the TSBs for any information on Recall notices.
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Sunday, January 23rd, 2022 AT 5:19 PM
Tiny
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Okay, again thank you for the help. I had the car dropped off yesterday and was able to do some testing. Today I was again able to test I did the blocking off of the intake hose from the Evap test, with no change. Also, I went again at it with my scanner and was able to figure out this (attached image) using the hot functions live data. All other values read no fault this was the only one that said there was a fault in real time. I'm not sure as to where this is located, possibly in-line somewhere near the Evap system but to be honest I haven't even got a chance to look yet. Thanks again and I will get back to you with anything newfound. Not sure if there is a way to test this or not, please let me know, thank you very much again.
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Sunday, January 30th, 2022 AT 9:31 AM
Tiny
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Going back to your previous post with the EVAP system vapor pressure dial reading, that's where that reading is coming from, The Fuel Tank Pressure sensor/transducer. Looking at it again, notice that it's in the orange range, almost red. I'd say that's where your fault comes from. You should be able to take the gas cap off and the pressure in the fuel tank should drop to 0 on your Scan tool. If the Tank Pressure sensor is reading higher than 0 you can release the pressure that way. If it doesn't drop to 0 there's a problem with it. It's on top of the gas tank.
If you look back up top, I put directions to get to it by removing the rear seat. It's a 3-wire sensor, so a Reference voltage wire (5 volts) yellow/light blue wire, a ground (grey/red wire) that's shared with the Mass Air Flow sensor and the APP sensor (Accelerator Pedal Position), and a Signal wire back to the ECM (red/pink wire).
So, you can check that it has its Ref voltage and its Ground. To be certain of the Signal wire is making it back to the ECM undisturbed you can check the voltage at the sensor and either compare that to scan data or go to the ECM and check the Pin there and see that the voltage reading is the same. But with a High Voltage code I would be concerned with bad ground or short to the signal wire. But do the gas cap test, it's probably just a bad sensor. These sensors are so sensitive, the expansion of the Fuel Vapors is actually measured with this sensor. That's just from the fuel vapors warming up. Thats what Fords Vapor Generation Test is, so it's the opposite of the vacuum test. But if you think about how low the pressure rise would be from just vapor expanding, it's such a small amount and that's why this sensor has to be reading in H20, to watch for such slight rises.

But that fault was the original code you had at the beginning of this. I'm a little surprised this is a no start condition. I don't think this would cause a no start condition. So, I would probably pull the rear seat and check the wiring harness back there. Maybe the harness is in trouble and the fuel pump is losing power or ground as well.

And that data, is that just Key On or is that Cranking? I'm also concerned with the Fuel Tank Pressure value is maxed out. Fuel pump command is off, is this still a no start, correct?
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Sunday, January 30th, 2022 AT 10:42 AM
Tiny
AVENGERWEEZEL77
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The car will start and run for about 3 to 7 seconds before it stalls. I didn't think to check the values with cap off great idea. I have gone out and checked the values and the pressure with cap off stays at 16.72 no change from key on to start and stalling. The voltage stays at 4.99. The sensor I looked at was only a two-wire sensor on the driver's side of the fuel tank. There are 2 separate access holes, one on drivers and one on pass. The passenger has the fuel pump and lines on the other side have just one two wire sensor. Any and all pictures or videos you may need I can go out and take them really quickly. As for voltage with the multi seamed spec unless I checked the wrong one of course. But I do not see a 3-wire sensor on the tank. Thank you again.

Never mind the two-wire sensor on the driver's side is the fuel level sensor.
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Sunday, January 30th, 2022 AT 11:54 AM
Tiny
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So, I'm assuming the 2-wire sensor you are seeing is the sending unit for the Fuel Gauge on the cluster. I see the 2 access holes, so the Fuel Tank Pressure Transducer is going to be through the passenger side access, it's going to be high up on the tank, so it avoids liquid gas. It may be attached to the Vapor line coming off the top of the tank, but it will be at one of the highest points, 3rd diagram is the connector. My biggest concern is that 4.99 voltage reading. That almost points to the Signal wire possibly being shorted to the 5-volt reference wire. And the no start issue might be another problem all together. Is this an Auction vehicle? With the start-stall issue, which sounds fuel related. Does this car have Dual Fuel injection? Two injectors per cylinder?
Another concern is that your Fuel pump Value is reading 75% but the Fuel Pump command is "off". There's more going on here, I think. This does have a Fuel Pump Module that is responsible for Fuel control. So, it's not directly the ECM.
After a stall out, what are your fuel trims reading? And are the 02s giving any reading at all. I know its in Open Loop, so the ECM is going to be looking at the Coolant Temperature for fuel control until it goes into Closed Loop operation.
But I think after we get this code issue figured out, there might still be a no start condition.
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Monday, January 31st, 2022 AT 9:21 AM
Tiny
AVENGERWEEZEL77
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Thank you again and I will be checking this later this evening. As far as the transducer access I'll have to see I'm not sure there is any room at all for me to get my hand in there to remove it without taking the tank loose, but I will for sure try and at least locate it before doing such work. This is not an auction vehicle sadly this is a vehicle I recently owned for several years and never really had any problem with it to be honest. Sold it to my wife's grandfather and he drove it for a week before all these issues came about. I'm just trying to make it right and not just leave him with the old "you bought it as is". I do not do people that way regardless of family or not. It's hard to make money being the honest one, that's for sure, but integrity is everything. This car does not have dual injectors. The pump command is on until it shuts off after the car stalls it turns off. If a video of this occurrence would help, I'd be glad to upload. Either way as soon as I'm able to I will check on the top of the tank with a flashlight. I will also take down the FTs and the O2s response when starting it. Again, the car will start and run sometimes 10 seconds before it sputters out. Also, if I give it about half throttle, it'll stay running until I relieve the throttle pressure. No longer my car and do not like revving someone's car to redline.
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Monday, January 31st, 2022 AT 10:50 AM
Tiny
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I fully agree with getting this right for him. With a half throttle response like that. Have you looked at the Mass Air flow sensor for any carbon build up? I'd check that since it's easy to get to, not sure if I mentioned that already, trying to go back through what we've looked at already. Unless the ECM is ruining the fuel injectors due to the high fuel tank pressure reading. I wonder what it would do if you left the fuel cap off and started it. Maybe the high-pressure reading is cutting off injector pulse for a safety reason. It's odd you can keep it running at part throttle. That sends my thinking into a whole different direction.

Okay, I just came across something. High positive crankcase pressure can set this code for some reason. Try popping the oil dipstick out and let it sit there. See if you're getting pressure blowing out that tube. I wonder if the PCV system is at fault here.

Also, if you can get to the Fuel Tank Pressure sensor, unplug it and recheck your reading on the scan tool. If it's still reading 5-volts. That needs to be addressed, because that will be a short to the signal wire, if it reads 5-volts it's a short to the Reference voltage.
Which is what it looks like, or a shorted sensor. But something else is happening here too.
We may need to unplug the ECM connector at some point if that high voltage reading won't go down. Because the ECMs code is correct, it's actually seeing high voltage. But with the way the PCV systems are built now, I don't disregard anything anymore.
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Monday, January 31st, 2022 AT 11:05 AM
Tiny
AVENGERWEEZEL77
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I was able to get out there this afternoon and run it up to the garage so I could work on it without freezing. We got snow the day it was delivered, and I couldn't get the mustang out of the yard due to it being stuck. Anyways it was about 60 today and every other day I have been trying to figure this out it has been below 20 degrees. I started the car and drove it into the garage like nothing was wrong and it ran for 10 minutes or so before dying. I could not locate the pressure sensor on the tank, and I looked very closely. If there is one I will have to drop it. I can't actually find one when I look up parts for the car other than a generic universal, why is there no exact fit? Anyways this car shares platforms with the Mercury Montego so I'm looking into issues with one of those as well for help. Same codes and same values as before and coolant temp was 179 Celsius if I'm not mistaken. Also voltage was I think somewhere around.6 or.06-.9 or.09 volts but don't quote me I didn't have my phone to take a pic. I wasn't out there as long as I should have been, I'm feeling pretty crappy today with a fever, so I didn't want to overdue it. So, if this sounds all over the place I apologize.
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Tuesday, February 1st, 2022 AT 4:13 PM
Tiny
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Well, I'm not sure, from what I see there's 3 sub-models, Limited, SE, and SEL. But they all have the same engine. 3.0liter CD 991 engine. The Fuel tank pressure sensor might be on the very top where you just can't see it, I hope the Coolant sensor wasn't reading 173degrees C, that's 354 degrees F. So, we'll have to recheck that when you're feeling better. I'm sure this car has a tank pressure sensor, you have data pids reading pressure and codes for it. It's been part of Fords Evap systems forever.
You're only getting the P0453 correct? Maybe the coolant sensor is causing an intermittent issue. But get back to me when you're feeling better. I will be here. I think we need to run through all your live data PIDS and take an overall look at everything.
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Tuesday, February 1st, 2022 AT 4:50 PM
Tiny
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I will do this and thank so very much for giving me some time, which means a lot. If I'm not mistaken, mine is the SEL but don't quote me. I'm really hoping it's just a day thing since I'm never sick to be honest, but I Will post anything I find, and I will also do the vacuum check at the oil check spout.
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Tuesday, February 1st, 2022 AT 5:29 PM
Tiny
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Okay, it will be over pressurizing at the oil spout. If the PCV is stuck closed. Hope you feel better.
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Wednesday, February 2nd, 2022 AT 8:29 AM
Tiny
AVENGERWEEZEL77
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Hello again, I am finally feeling better believe to have had the flu. Anyways it's warmer outside lately and the car seems to be running fine and idling great. I'm not sure why the outside temperature has anything to do with it, seeming to run fine, but it does. As far as the coolant temperature was incorrect it was 179 F not C. I was able to go out last night in the garage and check a few things like some wiring and the pressure at the dipstick. There was no pressure at the dipstick, and I couldn't locate any wiring issues thus far. I am unable to drop the tank since it's part of the truck and car, so it is not removable. I pulled all carpet out of the truck and looked for the sensor there and couldn't find it but I'm starting to think that this issue isn't caused by the evap P0453 code that I'm getting. I am having issues with voltage in general. That's the reason I have been going through all the wiring. I'm showing faults in my generator monitor for the system. I also noticed when it is running, I'm not getting much over 13 volts if even that much. Battery light comes on every so often when driving but goes back off after a little bit. Idk I will take the alternator off, and have it tested if I cannot find a ground or other wiring issue. Battery and alternator are not that old in my opinion but the car was wrecked back in the day. So, the splash guards underneath the car protecting the alternator are no longer there so the dirt and water that is constantly being splashed on the alternator may have caused premature failure. I'll link a video for the generator values I'm getting. This is idle with everything on including A/C, hazard lights, high beams, and radio. Maybe I'm wrong and this is normal behavior since at this point, I'm about as lost and desperate as I can be, lol.
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Wednesday, February 16th, 2022 AT 7:43 AM
Tiny
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Oh, wow what's the definition under Generator Monitor, what does that value mean? Its reading a fault, was there any code for the Alternator? I wonder if a diode failed inside the alternator and it's putting out ac voltage ripple. You can check that by setting your multimeter on ac volts, it will be a very low range (around 2-volt range). The Max ac voltage is only 50-75mv, so if the diode set or just one diode out of the 3 is bad it can send the ECM into a mess. It can't read ac voltage. Some alternators will still show a charging voltage but have failed diodes that can take out the ECM, it looks pretty unsteady, Id like to know what that value % means though, that little arrow next to it will have the definition of that parameter. I would think there would be a code too if the ECM is picking up a fault like that.
And you're correct, if there's some strange voltage issue going on who knows what codes it will throw out, I took a screen shot of your Scan tool. Looks like an Autel correct? Ill see if I have that data pid on mine. I know the car has a Fuel Tank Pressure sensor, but I would do the same you're doing and worry about a charging system issue first.
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Wednesday, February 16th, 2022 AT 2:16 PM
Tiny
AVENGERWEEZEL77
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I went out tonight with my multi meter and honestly the car ran 100 percent and had no voltage issues. Stayed above 14 v while idle and ran like new. Still only code is p0453 but cannot locate where the dang sensor is, got underneath and all around that tank and cannot see anything resembling it. Like I said I'm at a loss for words with this thing running so good one day and not the next. I called a local shop since I'm done messing with it. I never took anything to a different shop in my life and it's got me feeling some type of way, lol. The owner of the shop said he is swamped for a while and can't get the car in so idk. It has run fine for the past 2 days now but I know there is something I'm not seeing, and the owner does not want this car back with an engine light on so I guess I need to figure it out either way but I'll be calling other shops tomorrow since I know I can drive it there just fine. I did shake the heck out of the harness while it was running tonight and found no difference.
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Wednesday, February 16th, 2022 AT 4:26 PM
Tiny
AL514
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If you erase the code, just key "on" engine "off", and cycle the key. Does the code come right back without starting the engine? I remember the voltage on the tank reading 4.99-volts, which is as high as the sensor reading can go. I can't see the reading being just about 5-volts without the signal wire being shorted to the 5-V ref wire. That sensor would never really hit 5 volts at any time during normal operation. And you said you took off the gas cap and no change in that voltage signal if I remember correctly. If that's true, then it can't be an actual pressure too high issue. Try running the car for a while and keep those Evap data pids pulled up, like Purge, Vent Valve, Tank Pressure etc, and see if it changes at all during warm up or after a while of running. I'm going to look in some other places to see if I can find exactly where the sensor lives, It would really help if we could get it unplugged and see what it does to scan data.

Okay, I just went through an hours' worth of wiring diagrams, I found a connector C211 that has the Fuel Tank Pressure sensors 5vRef, Signal, and Ground, it's under the driver side dash. It's a bulk connector so I don't what else runs through it, ie, airbag wires and such,

So, I don't recommend pulling the connector apart, but you could back probe the connector and see what voltage readings you're getting there.

Another option is going right to the ECM connector C175B which I recommend this because it might be easier to get to and we know everything that's on that connector. You can even de-pin the signal wire or its reference voltage wire and see if one is shorted to the other. It looks like the pressure sensor doesn't share the Ref voltage with any other sensors. It does share a ground though.

So, I leave it up to you how you want to do this, but it's going to be much faster than trying to get to that sensor near the gas tank. Plus, I found that the Tank Pressure sensor can be an inline on the vapor hose, there's 2 different types.
So, I recommend going to the ECM and checking at the C175B connector, I will put everything you need for diagrams below. You can even check the Input Battery Voltage (hot at all times) on Pin #45.
I'm going to put the other connector that's under the driver side dash if you want to back-probe that connector too. Connector C211 (diagrams 3-5)
Diagram 6 is the 2 types of Tank Pressure sensors, probably why we can't find it under there. And finally pages 7 and 8 are everything on that ECM connector C175B so you know what you're disconnecting if you unplug it. I don't know if you need to disconnect the battery negative to unplug the ECM connectors on this vehicle, I would definitely have the key Off first. But at least you can get at these wires now.
I know that if you unplug the connector on a 3-wire component that uses a 5vRef you will read 5 volts on the signal wire because it's usually a bias voltage from the ECM to check the circuit integrity.
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Wednesday, February 16th, 2022 AT 7:33 PM
Tiny
AVENGERWEEZEL77
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Thank you for your time with this matter. I appreciate it very much. I went out for a bit tonight to see a few things checked, I new I didn't have time to check the PCM I'm sorry for that. I did try and start it, but it was only 50 in the garage, and it wouldn't run for more than 5 seconds. I turned the heaters on and once it hit 60 degrees in there, I started it and it ran fine. Should I just get this outside temperature out of my head and consider it a coincidence? I am 95 percent sure I found the sensor, but the tank is pushed up so close to the chassis that I can't get it out or even unplug it. This weekend I'll have more time to look at it and check the schematics you have provided. I know I said the tank was part of the trunk and body, but it is in fact not. I'll be honest I have had too many people I know who have been seriously hurt by cars falling on them that I am very afraid of trusting my jack and jack stands, so I bared up enough to actually get underneath it a bit to check closer. I need a lift in there for sure! Thank you again for all the time and information you have provided me.
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Thursday, February 17th, 2022 AT 4:46 PM
Tiny
AL514
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No, I think if you're really seeing a difference with temperature change and it's consistent then that's something to consider. You have a charging fault too. With heat related problems they come and go in a matter of minutes, so if we step back and look at everything together, you've got a charging system fault that the ECM is seeing, it's also seeing and evap system fault, a high pressure reading in the tank when there's no actual high pressure. Thats what we know. This can definitely be a pin-fitment issue at the ECM or one of those bulk connectors. Thats what I would be checking, and do it right where it all starts, the ECM connector. You don't need to get under the car for that and if you look at where that ECM connector is, the bottom of the windshield is the perfect place for it to get water intrusion.
Really, go check those connectors. That first picture shows the ECM connector being right under the windshield cowl.
This all points to a connection issue.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrDL810CEI4

Watch this video, this is what I'm talking about, faults with these fords and the wiring harnesses and connectors

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3jxtj0cI_AA

Here's another one, same exact problem, wiring harness issue, sitting on an A/C line and cutting through the harness.
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Friday, February 18th, 2022 AT 11:46 AM
Tiny
AVENGERWEEZEL77
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I have checked everything that was suggested, and I appreciate all the help you have provided. The car runs fine until it throws the generator output fault intermittently. I took the alternator the AutoZone and it passed 4 straight runs on the tester. I could not find any wiring issues whatsoever. Again, I came outside with my wife on Sunday where it happened to be about 70 degrees and said, "bet it runs like a top today", which of course it did. With the multimeter set up on the battery I get about 14.5v when I start it. As soon as the generator fault is picked up by the PCM I get less than 12 and drop all while it's sputtering to a stall condition. Once stalling has happened the battery light does illuminate (which I have researched, and it shouldn't stay on). I'm not sure how to diagnose this issue to be completely sure it's the alternator, and not some other issue due to grounds or "hot" wires to the battery from the alt. I have indeed very closely looked at all wiring. I do strongly believe this has something to do with the charging system in cold weather. I have one hundred percent given up on it and it will be brought to the shop this Saturday. I will update you on what is found out.
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Friday, February 25th, 2022 AT 8:14 AM

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