Rough idle that becomes worse in drive, reverse

Tiny
TRISCUIT
  • MEMBER
  • 1986 TOYOTA PICKUP
  • 2.4L
  • 4 CYL
  • 2WD
  • AUTOMATIC
  • 125,000 MILES
I've done a lot of work on this truck over many years attempting to get it to a smooth running, reliable machine. I've currently (still) got a rough idle that has become smoother/quieter as I've repaired and changed things but still isn't where it should be. The idle becomes more intense when shifted to anything other than Park of Neutral.

I have done the following over the years (some multiple times, some once. I do not currently drive the truck. It's been driven about 3,000 miles in 6.5 years):

1. Rebuilt engine with metal-backed timing chain guide (the motor mounts look fine)
2. Machined and rebuilt the cylinder head and adjusted the valve lash on intake and exhaust (cold and warm) = no change.
3. Installed all new vacuum hoses = no change.
4. Sprayed the vacuum hoses, intake manifold, etc with carburetor cleaner checking for changes in idle = Nothing.
5. New (installed years ago, but again, I barely drive the truck) spark plugs (NGK's, just like the 22REs like).
6. Recently checked the plugs for signs of engine health = they look fine/normal.
7. Put in 4 new Toyota OEM spark plug wires (no cheap wires) + ignition wire = No significant change.
8. Pulled each plug wire at the spark plug/engine = all 4 produced an engine stumble.
9. New distributor and cap (quality, not cheap) = No noticeable change.
10. New OEM TPS installed and meticulously adjusted via 4crawler. Com directions = slight power increase, slight idle improvement.
11. New transmission mount (old one was falling apart) = the shake at idle is less jarring but still as active.
12. New marine battery cables.
13. Tested VAFM while installed. It passed every test except for the last one. (Write-up of instructions are at 4crawler. Com) Not sure about the last test; waiting for outside input on replacing it because it's an expensive part.
14. R and R Oxygen sensor with OEM Denso sensor. Previous once was a Bosch which does not work well for the 22RE. New Denso sensor has produced a noticeable power gain, improved responsiveness, and the "rich" burning gasoline smell has been lessened; rough idle still present.
15. Pulled spark plugs again, checked and re-gaped them = small increase in power; idle still the same.
16. Checked for engine timing with sensor jumpered. It was coming in around 14 BTDC so I adjusted the distributor to get 5 BTDC. The distributor is NOT swung all the way to one side, rather it's pretty centered, so I don't think it's off a tooth but I don't have a tach so I can't check the idle RPMs. I'm going to buy a handheld one in the next week and re-check the timing.
17. Adjusted the valve lash on both intake and exhaust to spec listed on 22reperformance. Com.
18. Removed the charcoal canister and attempted to "clean" it. Improved airflow from bottom spout through top ones but not vice-versa. I'd noticed that there's a lot of off-gasing when I open my gas cap at all.
19. Oh yeah, the intake manifold was thoroughly cleaned when I rebuilt the engine. I also adjusted the stop screw for the accelerator cable (the one that goes from the throttle body to the accelerator pedal). I do need a new detent cable because it's completely overstretched.

I believe I have a misfire but I don't know what I should be hearing. I remember reading somewhere that holding a towel in front of the exhaust pipe should show a smooth flow and that the towel shouldn't be sucked in or be "puffing" back and forth like someone is blowing small puffs of air at it, repeatedly. No idea if that's true but a towel held there responds like small puffs are being blown at it.

I've had an injector replaced professionally which immediately produced a complete, overnight parasitic drain from the alternator. I've since fixed it after much hunting for the source. Nothing else has been done by anyone other than me in about 3 years.

My next steps are to try to jiggle the intake connectors to see if the engine stumbles, do another timing adjustment once I get the handheld tachometer, test the pickup coil(s) and ignition coil(s), and I may also try spraying carburetor cleaner for leaks one more time.

I'm really wondering about the engine idle and timing. It seems to need to idle high (it sounds high/fast, but what do I know?) So it doesn't stumble. But I'm running out of things to do and need help. What am I missing?
Monday, September 7th, 2020 AT 5:33 PM

37 Replies

Tiny
JACOBANDNICKOLAS
  • MECHANIC
  • 109,644 POSTS
Hi,

You have done a lot of work on this. Everything that you mentioned is what I would have suggested to check. However, I found an old technical service bulletin that could be relevant for you. It deals with hard start and rough idle. Take a look through this and let me know your thoughts. The attached pics correlate with the directions.

_________________________________________________

1986 Toyota Truck Pickup 2WD L4-144.4 2366cc 2.4L SOHC (22R-E)
Engine Control - Hard Starting/Rough Idle
Vehicle Power-train Management Sensors and Switches - Power-train Management Engine Control - Hard Starting/Rough Idle
ENGINE CONTROL - HARD STARTING/ROUGH IDLE
89toyota10

REFERENCE ENGINE
NUMBER 011
DATE 10-20-89
MODEL RN
TITLE 22R-E, 22R-TE HARD STARTING/ROUGH IDLE

The following parts are now available to improve the start-ability and idle stability after a hot dead soak or an extended dead soak.

Pic 1

MODIFICATION INFORMATION:

pic 2

YEAR/MODEL APPLICATION:

pic 3

PART NUMBER INFORMATION:
PRODUCTION CHANGE INFORMATION:

CONDITION 1: Temperature Switch No. 2 specification (same as

field fix) changed at beginning of 1988 model year.

CONDITION 2: ECU modification at beginning of 1988 model year to
activate cold start injector at higher temperature (22R-E only).

REPAIR PROCEDURE:

1. Replace cold start injector time switch with the new part.

Pic 4

2. On vehicles equipped with a pressure-up system, (see application chart on page 1) also replace Temperature Switch No. 2 with the modified one.

Pic 5

3. For vehicles equipped with Air Conditioning, the ACV terminal must be disconnected from the ECU when installing the modified Temperature Switch No. 2 (Condition 1). This is necessary to prevent the Engine Idle-Up from working continuously after warm up.
HOW TO REMOVE THE WIRE TERMINAL

pic 6

1. Insert a miniature screwdriver from the open end. Move the locking clip to the unlocking direction ( ) and hold it in this position.

Do not apply excessive force to the terminal.

Do not pry the terminal with the screwdriver.

2. Carefully remove the terminal without using excessive force.

Pic 7

3. Wrap the removed wire terminal with electrical tape. Tuck the terminal into the harness protector and secure with electrical tape.

_______________________

Let me know if this helps.

Joe
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Monday, September 7th, 2020 AT 7:49 PM
Tiny
4DRTOM
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Hello I'm Tom.

I'm not sure I understand the actual symptom. Whether it's an engine with poor idle or a engine/transmission mounting issue. You said the replacing a mount made it better but still not right. Can you upload a video of the issue your trying to address?
Tom
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Monday, September 7th, 2020 AT 7:51 PM
Tiny
TRISCUIT
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Hey Joe, thanks for chiming in. I received my handheld tachometer today. It's nothing super expensive but it helps. I was able to adjust the air gap on the distributor to 0.12mm and get it put back in by checking for TDC on the compression stroke with the distributor rotor pointing to the #1 plug on the cap. Then I went to an online class.

An hour and 45 minutes later I went out and tried to start the truck twice - it didn't want to turn over. I let it sit for a couple of minutes and tried again with success while waiting for the engine to warm up it started to hesitate and sounded like it was going to turn off, then it did. I was able to start it up again with no problem immediately, race the engine a few times, and then measured the RPM's around 850-880. While racing the engine I could feel it dropping out for a split second. It did that two or three times over about 6-8 seconds.

I then checked the timing and it was reading 8 BTDC. I adjusted the idle to around 800 RPM's and then jumpered the diagnostic connector and adjusted the timing to 5 BTDC. The RPM's seemed to stay the same but as I was getting ready to take the truck for a spin around the block it up and shut off. It stumbled a bit in there but the engine shake seemed smoother overall.

I tried to start it up again but now it's mad at me so I called it a night. *Eye roll* The video is of my last attempt to start it. I'm not receiving any diagnostic codes.
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Wednesday, September 9th, 2020 AT 8:06 PM
Tiny
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Tom, the engine's rough idle is the problem. An idle can be perceived as too rough if mounts aren't dampening the vibrations adequately which is why I changed the transmission mount and did everything else engine-related.
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Wednesday, September 9th, 2020 AT 8:07 PM
Tiny
TRISCUIT
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I went back out today and pulled out the ignition coil and igniter assembly, tested them and cleaned up the contacts. It tested within spec for both the primary and secondary readings and the truck started when I got it put back in and connected. Cool.

I noticed the engine idle slowed and smoothed out a bit once the truck warmed up, for a second I thought it was going to start sputtering and hesitating but it never did. I pulled out my test light to check the timing again and it’s holding steady at 12 BTDC and 5 BTDC - jumpered. Then I decided to move the spark plug pickup connector to all four wires and watch the light fire. My number two spark plug is firing much faster than the other 3. That’s the fuel injector that got a new connector and I noticed the spark plug Itself is slightly off center like a PO may have cross threaded it. It still seats fit and looks the same as the others.

Below is a video of the engine idling. I tried to get one of the timing light going but the camera wasn’t picking up the light’s firing frequency accurately at all. The second video is of the idle change when I switch out of Park/Neutral into any other gear. Again the roughness of the idle isn’t given justice in the video but you still see and hear some of it.
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Thursday, September 10th, 2020 AT 5:48 PM
Tiny
JACOBANDNICKOLAS
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Hi,

I did watch the video and understand what you mean. Tell me, is the temperature gauge always on hot? Also, the idea that the one cylinder seems to be firing faster than the others is odd. Are you sure there isn't a crack in the distributor cap or wires arcing at some point?
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Thursday, September 10th, 2020 AT 7:22 PM
Tiny
4DRTOM
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Hi,

Hmm, I think I'm hearing a valve tick. On rigs like this I usually would get out the stethoscope and listen to the internal sounds of the head. You want to have no change between valve sounds as you probe down the valve cover bolt heads and various places around the block head seam. I bet if you did that you'll find that one or more is louder than the others. I think you have something going on with the head. Namely its just old, so nothing is really wrong but everything is worn a little bit and all together its just not smooth, only 125,000 miles seems low because it has the sound of an engine with a lot of time on it. It is pushing 35 years. What are your compression readings? Are they consistent and all about the same? How does it drive, does it have power? Are you getting any water out the tail pipe, not vapor but drips? A perfect burn will make water. Does it have any visible emissions? How about the underside of the oil cap, check to see if there's any dried carbon on it. I'm asking these questions just to try to determine how it was taken care of over all these years.
Tom
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Thursday, September 10th, 2020 AT 10:42 PM
Tiny
TRISCUIT
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Joe: the temperature gauge is not on hot, it never is. It actually barely moves up beyond the minimum line when it's completely warmed up. I think you saw the top mark of the gauge, not the actual needle. I went out today and accidentally bumped the external part of the pickup coil (that is exposed on the distributor case) and guess what? The engine stumbled a bit then came back. So, I just got a clue that it needs to be replaced. The wires are a bit too exposed so that may be causing a problem and i'm going to go out tonight and see if I can spot any arcing on the wires despite the fact that they're brand new. I wrapped a piece of electrical tape around one of the pickup coil wires and it seems like the idle had smoothed out a bit. I'll include a picture below.

Tom: the engine and head have been machined and rebuilt. The valve tick is the result of my adjusting the valves and tightening the cover too much. I loosened it and the tick is gone. This still doesn't explain the drastic change in vibration between unloaded and loaded, ie, park/neutral and all other gears. I'll do a compression check soon just for some new numbers. The last time I did it the compression was fine on all 4 cylinders but it was years ago and the truck has been driven some since then. The power level is much better since readjusting the TPS after timing the engine then installing an appropriate o2 sensor. Previously it felt extremely sluggish and weak. Then after the new #2 fuel injector connector install is gained some power and the idle chilled out a bit more. There is no visible emission from the tailpipe, or water, and both the oil and exhaust smell rich. I'm going to change the oil soon for a fresh start and a more clear picture of what's what since it's feeling and sounding better than it did before. Truly, every thing seems to help a small amount but by now I feel the truck should be darn near sounding like a purring kitten.

I can tell you this with certainty (because I have done so much work over the years and corrected a lot of what was previously done): the vehicle was not well cared for by one or more of the previous owners. This is why I have done everything listed in my original post and more. Even things like the ignition switch had clearly been messed with an soldered in weird places and the original fusible link housing was melted. It wasn't well very loved. But I love it and would like to be able to drive around a healthy, happy truck.

Does it seem like that wire exposure on the p/u coil could be the problem? Thanks, again.
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Sunday, September 13th, 2020 AT 4:43 PM
Tiny
JACOBANDNICKOLAS
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Hi,

Anything is possible. Since it was soldered it concerns me.

Let us know what you find.

Joe
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Sunday, September 13th, 2020 AT 8:26 PM
Tiny
TRISCUIT
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Hi Joe,

I installed the new distributor pickup coil, changed the oil, and did a dry compression test. The new coil provides a more powerful start and I've noticed water coming out of the tailpipe now. There was an 8" x 3" area that was wet below the tail pipe but it didn't help to I smooth out the idle.

The compression test gave me the following:
Cylinder 1 - 158
Cylinder 2 - 160
Cylinder 3 - 168
Cylinder 4 - 155

I did some reading regarding your suggestion about the Cold Start Injector and the CSI Time Switch and it seems like it could be an issue, but not explicitly. Ill test the Time Switch soon but I don't have the symptomatic hard starts in the morning/when it's cold and it's rarely below 65 degrees where I live. The truck has an exhaust leak at the manifold/cylinder head so I smell more than I should coming from the engine but noticed the old oil smelled like gasoline as well but I don't have any smoke coming from the exhaust pipe, I don't lose acceleration when driving and the spark plugs look normal. The MPG was low but since changing the O2 sensor, readjusting the TPS and changing the oil I haven't driven the truck around to see if the MPG has changed.

It seems like something is up with the exhaust or the fuel system so I'm going to look back through my record of things I have done over the years and will send a message about that soon, as well. Would an exhaust leak cause these symptoms? And, why would water come from the tailpipe after installing the new pickup coil?
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Saturday, September 26th, 2020 AT 4:41 PM
Tiny
JACOBANDNICKOLAS
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An exhaust leak can cause issues. If it is pre catalytic converter, it can allow air into the system causing the O2 sensor to think the engine is running lean. As a result, the computer compensates by adding fuel. That could be a big part of what you are experiencing.

As far as the water, that simply sounds like condensation. Honestly, I wouldn't be too worried about it. The compression looks good as well.

Let me know how bad the exhaust leak at the manifold is.

Take care,
Joe
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Saturday, September 26th, 2020 AT 6:19 PM
Tiny
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Joe,

I can feel exhaust puffing out at 3 different points around the top and sides of the manifold. I have been looking into an aftermarket manifold and exhaust over the years but was hoping something else would fix the issue in the meantime but it looks like that should be my next priority from what you have mentioned. I know two of the bolt holes are stripped and one has been tapped to the next larger size. I've been doing a little research and think that I can helicoil the original sized holes and use some JB Weld (high heat) to fill in the larger hole so I can drill it back to the original size. I know the OE exhaust manifold bolts are too short on this engine and very prone to falling out. After-market bolts are a little longer from the source I'm checking which is good.
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Saturday, September 26th, 2020 AT 9:02 PM
Tiny
JACOBANDNICKOLAS
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I think it is something to consider. The best way to fix it would be a helicoil. Once they are in, they work great.

Let me know what you decide.

Joe
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Saturday, September 26th, 2020 AT 9:42 PM
Tiny
TRISCUIT
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I've begun saving for a new exhaust manifold. I'd previously had my current manifold machined flat hoping to fix the leak but no luck. The new one will cost about $450 so I may disappear for awhile while I accumulate the money.

Can helicoils be used to reduce the diameter of a bolt hole as well? I'm concerned about using one on the exhaust bolt hole that was tapped to a larger size.
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Sunday, September 27th, 2020 AT 8:57 PM
Tiny
JACOBANDNICKOLAS
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Yes, they can be used to reduce the hole size. You will need to determine the hole size and then what is needed. They make all different sizes. When you get the set, it will come with its own tap. You will need to use what is provided.

Are you able to find a used manifold at a salvage yard?

Joe
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Monday, September 28th, 2020 AT 6:08 PM
Tiny
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Joe, alright, I'll look (harder) for an appropriate Heli-coil set. I could find a used manifold from a salvage yard but considering I have already had my current one machined flat I'd prefer to get a new one since it will be in better shape overall. You actually just made me realize that I could just Heli-coil everything right now and continue to save up for a new manifold over time. Unless the current one has warped again this would allow me to get some more feedback about the state of the engine when the manifold seals more tightly. Thanks! Haha.
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Friday, October 2nd, 2020 AT 3:51 PM
Tiny
STEVE W.
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If the hole is far oversized you may want to look at using a time-sert or e-zlok instead of a helicoil, Those are both thicker walled inserts instead of just the coil of threads, because they are thicker they can easily return the bore back to the original size.

http://www.timesert.com/
https://www.ezlok.com/
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Sunday, October 4th, 2020 AT 5:30 AM
Tiny
TRISCUIT
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Steve, I’ll look into both of those as well. Thank you.
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Sunday, October 4th, 2020 AT 6:52 AM
Tiny
TRISCUIT
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Update: I’ve got two of the three stripped bores drilled and ready to tap. The last one is close to the firewall and I can’t get my drill in there straight. I saw a 90 degree angle tool that would work except for it it wasn’t large enough to hold the drill bit. Do you all know of any that may? Or another option? If I can’t figure anything out I’ll tow the truck to a shop to have them drill it out. Thanks!
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Monday, November 9th, 2020 AT 6:59 PM
Tiny
JACOBANDNICKOLAS
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Hi,

What you described sounds like a right angle drill. How big is the drill bit? You may need to get one with a 1/2" chuck or get an adapter to change the one you have to a 1/2" chuck. I've seen them online for under $20.00.

Let me know.
Joe
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Monday, November 9th, 2020 AT 8:37 PM

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