While driving engine shuts off

1995 PONTIAC GRAND AM
240,000 MILES • 2.3L • 4 CYL • 2WD • AUTOMATIC
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YASIRDAHHAM
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My engine stalls all of a sudden every time I am driving the past 5 months. The instruments panel still shows the typical red light of the alternator and other warning lamps but the engine looks either starving for fuel ( which i doubt much because the fuel pump is always working with its noise audible to me) or the electronic ignition is failing instantaneously in an almost systematic mode because it never reaches a terminal problem so that my car mechanic can follow and track nor does it stop happening. It is pretty embarrassing when I am waiting for the green traffic light to move but it fails to turn and all those drivers behind me start the noise of horns. Sometimes it takes a few seconds to restart again (putting the transmission on N) but most of the times it takes some whole 2-3 minutes of continuous cranking( using the starter motor of course) that I had to replace the starter motor 3 times in a row only this past month! I tried replacing the crankshaft position sensor, TBS, MAP sensor, Throttle position sensor, ignition key lock( both the mechanical one and the black unit attached to it on the left side of the steering wheel complex), I even replaced the whole Electronic Ignition set including the two coils and the control module along with their containing plastic cover. In some cases it worked alright for a brief time once I implemented the replacing act ( the ignition switch, for instance|) but then it simply reverts back to the annoying symptoms. I am perplexed: is it the PCM? Is it that aluminum case beneath the dashboard drawer next to the front right door or is it some other control module buried deep inside the dashboard? A loose earth wire or a wire making a short circuit may be? I tried a scanner that works with my old and almost obsolete DLC( having only 3 pins/wires) two times in a row at two independent auto scanner workshops but it simply says( The scanner couldn't communicate with your DLC). One important symptom to include, when i crank the engine using the starter( and the engine takes too long to fire alright) the miles/kilometers pointer to the right side of the RPM one shoots up although neither the engine is working right nor the vehicle is actually moving, there seems to be some short circuit here if I am not mistaken. The engine backfires sometimes and there is a smell of gasoline around the engine.
May 29, 2021 at 5:37 AM
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DANNY L
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Hello, I'm Danny.

It sounds like you might have a weak or failing fuel pump not providing adequate fuel pressure. Have you tested the fuel pressure? I would suggest performing a fuel pressure test. Here is a tutorial showing what is involved:

https://www.2carpros.com/articles/how-to-check-fuel-system-pressure-and-regulator

After performing this test get back to us with the results and we'll go from there. I've attached a picture below showing the proper fuel pressure for your vehicle. Hope this helps and thanks for using 2CarPros.
May 29, 2021 at 7:16 PM
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JACOBANDNICKOLAS
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Hi,

You are correct. The PCM is on the passenger side under the dash. I attached a pic below.

The idea if a fuel smell is what concerns me. That can be caused by a loss of spark to the plugs causing unburned fuel to exit the engine via the exhaust. Or, you may simply have high fuel pressure that is flooding the engine.

Do you ever notice black or gray smoke from the exhaust when the engine starts? Does this only happen at an idle? If you hold the throttle to the floor when it won't start, does that make a difference?

The idea that you sometimes hear a backfire is leading me to think of a fuel pressure issue. Also, when the engine isn't running, you shouldn't hear the pump running. When turning the key from off to on, it will prime for about a second or two, but then it should turn off.

Take a look through this and let me know if anything mirrors what you experience:

https://www.2carpros.com/articles/engine-backfires-while-running

Let me know.

Joe
May 29, 2021 at 7:19 PM
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YASIRDAHHAM
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Thank you dear Joe for caring to respond and that prompt indeed. The stuff you led me to is a mighty content that I am to go through quite thoroughly as it deserves but for the meantime I wish to acknowledge a little thing regarding the continuous buzz of the fuel pump that I mentioned, it is because my car electrician bypassed the PCM, he found that the live feed for the fuel pump relay (you know it, extreme right side of the engine compartment along with 3 more relays) has voltage once but then the voltage disappears suddenly, for some mysterious reason that grey wire had no +ve 12 volts so the guy penetrated the black rubber shield leading to the inside of the car and to the PCM zone and arranged for a bypass wire to reach the line leading to the fuel pump along the right side of the hull (there are two wires, grey one as live 12 VDC feed and a negative/earth black wire), he attached that bypass wire to the fuel pump relay and fed the relay with a hot live (through the switch) 12 VDC and that allowed him to tell if the PCM was causing any problem or not in absence of any means to test the PCM( as the DLC having 3 wires is almost dead, does not communicate with the scanner used). The problem is that even this weird bypass trick didn't save me, once again the engine started to experience the same intermittent stalling. Here in Iraq we do various tricks to manage our problems due to lack of service eqpt and stations. Until next time with an input regarding what you kindly sent, lots of thanks and gratitude.
May 30, 2021 at 10:59 AM
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YASIRDAHHAM
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So Danny my dear, I found no field to reply for your answer, i wanted to tell you that my vehicle doesn't seem to have any pressure checking facility (valve), all fuel delivery and return lines are tightly sealed connections that demand a special plastic tool to easy detaching. if there had been a check point it would have helped me track and see if the pressure falls at any moment. Still, I needed to know the designated pressure value that you kindly provided, the fuel pumps we use here are all Chinese brands (usually sold here at 10-15 USD/each) with 10 kgf/square cm pressure upon installing. I started with replacing the old fuel pump and the fuel filter to eliminate any probability of a faulty one of these two items. I am talking about some 142 PSI here.
May 30, 2021 at 1:22 PM
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JACOBANDNICKOLAS
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Hi,

If you have 142 PSI, I'm surprised the entire engine isn't full of fuel. I attached the manufacturer's specs below. You are way above them.

As far as the test port, if there isn't one on the fuel rail, you will need to disconnect the supply hose from the fuel rail and place a T connector there. One side will have a Schrader valve on it and the other two will be for fuel to go through.

If you look at pic 2 below, it shows what I am referring to.

Let us know what we can do to help.

Take care,

Joe

See pics below.



May 30, 2021 at 6:37 PM
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YASIRDAHHAM
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This is great, i met a car mechanic today and we agreed to admit my car into his garage to arrange for this modification so that fuel system pressure can be recorded. Meanwhile, I am attaching pics of the catalog of my current fuel pump, it is one of these models, all delivering 6 bars (87 PSI), strange how I had been using the same fuel pump (already replaced some 8 pumps since I acquired this car in 2006)! Why did it work fine? The car mechanic expressed his skepticism since there is already a return valve (check valve) attached to the "bridge" that receives the fuel line and feed it to the nozzles! It is supposed to be responsible for relieving the pressure and delivering all surplus fuel back to the fuel tank.
May 31, 2021 at 6:47 AM
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JACOBANDNICKOLAS
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Hi,

There is a fuel pressure regulator which is designed to maintain a specified pressure. It is actuated by engine vacuum. Make sure the hose is connected and there is vacuum to it.

If you look below at pic 1, I attached a picture of the fuel rail and highlighted the regulator.

Let me know what you find.

Take care,
Joe

See pic below.
May 31, 2021 at 8:34 PM
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DANNY L
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Hello again.

It definitely seems your fuel system is over pressurized. I've attached picture steps below on how to replace the fuel pressure regulator including its location circled in red on your Grand Am. Keep us updated. Hope this helps and thanks again for using 2CarPros.
May 31, 2021 at 8:56 PM
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YASIRDAHHAM
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You guys are great. I had been suspecting this valve because there was a hissing tick that I used to hear coming somehow near the space over the exhaust manifold. My mechanic tried choking the fuel high pressure hoses (supply and return, one after the other) to see if things get better but he excluded this valve. Today will be seeing this step, I am grateful for your help and patience.
May 31, 2021 at 10:09 PM
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DANNY L
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You're welcome!
Keep us updated and let us know if you have any further questions on this issue. Thanks again for using 2CarPros.

Danny-
Jun 1, 2021 at 2:11 AM
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YASIRDAHHAM
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Danny L and Joe. Thanking you all for the useful and invaluable assistance provided by you, I benefited a lot and it makes me grateful to you. The mystery was solved this afternoon as I tried replacing the crankshaft position sensor (we don't have any new spares here, imagine how my car is the one and only 4-cylinder Grand Am in all Mosul where I live, all parts that I could replace were second-hand ones). I didn't leave it all to the mechanic and rather cared to take the lead and inspect the wires from the sensor and back to the huge cable, and guess what? The silicone rubber stuff that is usually inside any plastic clip of a sensor (those colored ones with slotted patterns) was swollen and torn in part, the mechanics who dealt with the sensor along the past 8 months used to shove the clip into the sensor and quit once it felt like home.I took it off and replaced it with another brand new one. The engine is alright now, not a single stall! Thanks again and again to you all.
Jun 1, 2021 at 1:20 PM
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JACOBANDNICKOLAS
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Hi,

I'm glad to hear you found the problem. Since it was related to the crankshaft position sensor, you were likely losing spark to the plugs resulting in the fuel smell.

Regardless, we appreciate the update. Please feel free to come back anytime in the future. You're always welcome here.

Take care,

Joe
Jun 1, 2021 at 7:05 PM
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YASIRDAHHAM
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Bless you all dear friend, you are a treasure.
Jun 2, 2021 at 3:16 AM
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DANNY L
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You're welcome!
Glad to hear you found and fixed the problem. Thanks again for using 2CarPros and we hope you will use our site again in the future when needed.

Danny-
Jun 2, 2021 at 4:12 AM
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YASIRDAHHAM
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Danny my dear friend, one question please regarding the replacement of the fuel regulator valve. I managed to get one (second hand, as usual, there is no brand new one) but upon trying to replace it it turned out that it is a different layout with the base plate having an Allen bolt to the right rather than to the left as in my own engine. I am attaching an image to clarify things, could the replacement valve be taken from a 6-cylinder engine (for Pontiac Grand Am 6 cylinder)? I tried to loosen the big nut so that I can tilt the plate to the other side and ease its installation on the fuel rail but boy, it could never be turned.
Jun 3, 2021 at 1:35 PM
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DANNY L
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Hello again.

Yes, you acquired a fuel pressure regulator from the V6 engine Grand Am. Although they both supply the required 41-47 PSI pressure they both mount to the fuel rail differently as you are experiencing. You will need to find a 4 cylinder version fuel pressure regulator to mount correctly. Hope this helps and thanks again for using 2CarPros.

Danny-
Jun 3, 2021 at 1:57 PM
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YASIRDAHHAM
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Thanks again and again.
Jun 4, 2021 at 1:20 AM
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DANNY L
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Hello again.

I'm sorry to hear you are having so much trouble acquiring the correct part. Just out of curiosity where is the most local auto part store near you? Can you order from an auto parts store and have it shipped to you? Just be sure to acquired a new or used fuel pressure regulator for a 4 cylinder engine Grand Am. Hope this helps and thanks again for using 2CarPros.

Danny-
Jun 4, 2021 at 1:46 AM
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YASIRDAHHAM
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Dearest Danny this is Iraq. We have thousands of auto parts dealers and suppliers but never for this car and its sisters (Buick, Lumina,..etc). These cars had been imported next to 2003 war as "used" ones, they came in quite few numbers and as far as Mosul my town is concerned too many of them got destroyed when ISIS invaded the town. I may be exact if I say my Pontiac Grand Am is the only survivor of them all. i have an Iraqi friend who lives in USA, he once sent me a whole timing case assy, electronic Ignition assy and 2 front suspension struts, he refused to receive any money for that, the struts (quite rare in Iraq) did cost him 28 USD but the freight charge came to 330 USD, thus I do not ask him to do me any more favor. I can get some from UAE may be, in Turkey where I settle a few months per year I failed to locate any dealer that can satisfy my need. Hopefully, tomorrow will see me replacing this for that, the guy who managed it has a whole yard of used engines and body parts, it won't be a big problem as I hope. sorry for disturbing you with my primitive habitat needs.
Jun 4, 2021 at 7:17 AM
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DANNY L
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Hello again.

Sorry to hear this. Hopefully you will be able to barter for the correct regulator. Please keep us updated and let us know if you have any further questions on this issue. Stay safe. Thanks again for using 2CarPros.

Danny-
Jun 4, 2021 at 8:12 PM
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YASIRDAHHAM
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I replaced the 6-cylinder one for a 4-cylinder one. Nothing changed and I got depressed as in every unsuccessful attempt, the engine returned back to the hard starting and intermittent stalling but at a much less rate. A friend of mine suggested seeing an electrician that he trusts. i went there and he suggested that a temp switch that is responsible for cold starting is the prime suspect. That brass switch located right beneath the brake and ABS assembly ( hard to reach) had two wires of its harness worn out with their copper strands touching each other. He parted them a bit, a solution that can be further perfected tomorrow, I will replace the switch and isolate its wires from each other. Seems like rust never sleeps with me! yet it is a progress considering the vague diagnosis in absence of scanner and working OBD DLC. I drove it back home ( some 25 km) and it looked like healed but I have to avoid over-optimism this time and allow for some 2 weeks time to make sure it is over this time..
Jun 5, 2021 at 6:45 AM
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DANNY L
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Hello again.

I've attached a picture below of the coolant temperature switch location I believe you are talking about. One switch that sends a signal to the ECM-engine control module and the other switch is a sending unit to the warning light on the dashboard. I believe the switch sending single to the ECM is giving you trouble. I've attached pictures steps below for replacement including their location in red. Hope this helps and thanks again for using 2CarPros.

Danny-
Jun 5, 2021 at 7:18 AM
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YASIRDAHHAM
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Hi dear Danny. Upon dismantling the whole dashboard block last week I came across this blue monster, any idea what it is and what does it control? It came right to the left side of the steering column.
Jun 6, 2021 at 12:55 AM
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DANNY L
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Hello again.

I tried running those numbers but nothing came up. Are there any other markings, numbers, or stickers on the other side? Look forward to hear back from you. Thanks again for using 2CarPros.

Danny-
Jun 6, 2021 at 6:33 AM
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YASIRDAHHAM
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No my dear, I took a pic for the side that carries some marking, the other side is blank. My electrician said it doesn't look like the cause of my problem, and to support his POV he extracted it out and operated the engine. In fact, nothing changed, the engine worked as usual and stalled as usual too. You can drop this thread as long as it had never been an issue for earlier customers/members. I thought that as long as I have gone as deep as dismantling the whole dashboard then I would better seize this opportunity and give an idea of what I had found therein.
Jun 6, 2021 at 12:13 PM
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DANNY L
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Hello again.
I will see what I can find out further on these numbers and this part. Thanks again for using 2CarPros.

Danny-
Jun 7, 2021 at 6:38 AM
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YASIRDAHHAM
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Meanwhile, I am trying another thing replacing the TPS. The exhaust fumes had been very irksome lately and I remembered that I had replaced the original TPS with a Chinese one that looks the same but with no defining code or number, it is used for Opel engines here. The first few minutes after switching back to the original TPS had the (Check Engine) warning lamp off this time and the exhaust smell is not that detested like before. Tomorrow will be seeing a prolonged test and I will revert back here with new news.
Jun 7, 2021 at 12:48 PM
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DANNY L
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Hello again.

I found out what the blue cartridge is for. That is called the multi-function alarm. That is what makes the chime noises when the headlights are left on, doors left open, unbuckled seat belts, etc. That part is discontinued and will need to be found used if needed. I've attached a few pictures for you below. Hope this helps and thanks again for using 2CarPros.

Danny-
Jun 7, 2021 at 3:23 PM
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YASIRDAHHAM
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I told you, you are just great ! Unfortunately, i found this email of yours in the Spam folder, lucky I was to check SPAM folder while expecting an email from a new friend , one that hadn't arrived as expected. Thanks to you dear Danny.
Jun 7, 2021 at 3:54 PM
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DANNY L
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You're welcome!
Keep us updated or let us know if you have any further questions on this issue. Thanks again for using 2CarPros.

Danny-
Jun 7, 2021 at 4:01 PM
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YASIRDAHHAM
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Great thing that you had sent regarding the coolant temperature sensor, especially the pic that states how it can affect the PCM signal to fuel system. I tried my best so far, but due to the chaos that had been made with the 4 relays that are located in a pocket like enclosure right above the front right mud guard, I need your help to let me know which task does every relay have and what is the original part number of each of them, can you please? They were once all (Potter & Brumfield) brand , one for the engine coolant radiator fan, another for the A/C system, one for the fuel pump, the fourth is vague to me. Now after several attempts from my car mechanic the engine is still experiencing those sudden blackouts (which i will try dealing with that coolant temperature sensor) but I need to retain the default pattern of the 4 relays, what are their part Number. I know of the attached ones only, the rest in my car had been replaced by Korean makes 2 years ago.
Jun 11, 2021 at 5:43 AM
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YASIRDAHHAM
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Another relay I had a choice of only one image to load, unlike with your answers to me with multiple pics attached .
Jun 11, 2021 at 5:44 AM
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YASIRDAHHAM
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Those were the relays I have as spare parts: The forthcoming 4 images are for what I have right now, two of them are hard to read as you can see. I believe that my problems come from these relays (some of them).
Jun 11, 2021 at 5:56 AM
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YASIRDAHHAM
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Second image:
Jun 11, 2021 at 5:58 AM
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YASIRDAHHAM
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Third Image:
Jun 11, 2021 at 5:59 AM
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YASIRDAHHAM
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Fourth Image:
Jun 11, 2021 at 6:00 AM
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YASIRDAHHAM
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What is meant be "seated but not stripped"? Is it about the wire to never be stripped?
Jun 11, 2021 at 10:46 AM
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YASIRDAHHAM
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One more question please. regarding this diagram which rang an alternate bell. The illustrated (Fuel Pump Switch/Oil Pressure Sender/Switch) had been giving me a hard time once, the fuel pump would fail to operate but one electrician did cut off one of the three wires attached to the socket of this switch/sender unit, most probably he had an earlier experience with it in the Oldsmobile Cutlass Sierra that had been used in Iraq in lots 2 decades ago. Every time I be replacing the faulty unit there is no response as per the oil pressure gauge, it just shoots at full reading. Lately I bought a brand new one, a bit longer than the original but to my surprise, it still does not give a reading of oil pressure. The car spares dealer blamed it on the instrument panel but I believe that the pressure switch is for a different automobile (Chevrolet or else). Any idea of how to locate the proper switch before buying it? Should it have a marking for pressure or a code may be? Where should its 3 wires go? Anyone to the ECM as your description on the diagram suggests?
Jun 11, 2021 at 10:58 AM
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JACOBANDNICKOLAS
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Hi,

Looking at the schematic, I'm seeing a pink wire and a gray wire to the oil pressure switch. Was one of those wires cut? The original part number for the oil pressure switch is 12635957. If you look up GM part number 12635957, you will find them.

I attached a pic of the connector below showing only two pins, same as schematic. I'm not sure which was cut.

Last, when they say seated and not stripped, they are referring to the sensor. It needs to be fully seated to prevent leakage. However, if you over-tighten it, the threads could strip and create a leak. It's not referring to the wiring.

Let me know if this helps.

Take care,

Joe
Jun 11, 2021 at 9:23 PM
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YASIRDAHHAM
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Thanks for clarifying re the " Not Stripped" term, a new info to me. As for the pressure switch (which is referred to in your schematic diagram as being also a fuel pump switch because as I will be clarifying in the next few lines; it shuts the fuel pump every time the oil pump is not delivering enough oil pressure, a means of protection for the whole engine), there is some ambiguity here since my pressure switch has 3 wires, one of them is a brown one, the connector itself has 3 pins( female)! That electrician mentioned in my latest comment did severe the brown wire and then only the engine could be started, he said that this pressure switch has 3 wires, one of them gets the pressure reading to the ECM so that whenever oil pressure goes low, the ECM would be shutting the fuel pump, hence the whole engine right at once. In fact, this is what happened with me. Now I have the 3 wires pressure switch, the 3 wire connector with the brown wire attached to it, yet there is no pressure reading in my gauges instruments panel. This way, this pressure switch is either failing to send a pressure reading to the oil pressure gauge, failing to send a pressure reading to the ECM or failing to do both tasks. Additionally, I will dismantle the coolant temperature sender unit( to the ECM), replacing it to see if the engine stops stalling right after that( i don't have a way of testing it). Today, I drove a whole 110 km to Duhok town and got back, that is about 220 km, the engine stalled more than 20 times giving a tough time, the weird thing is that for 3 times in the least; the RPM pointer dropped down dead but as I was maintaining my foot pressure on the accelerator pedal it simply " resurrected: at once! This phenomena is quite typical in a manual transmission vehicle when the engine stall and you press down the clutch pedal, out the GB lever into some high or medium gear and then take off your foot, the engine gets back to life, how could it be there with my automatic transmission? All the time that the engine was not working smoothly, the speedometer( km/mile counter) would be jumping erratically as i crank the starter motor, as if it has a short circuit malfunction (tachometer and speedometer pointers both jumping high when i turn the starter motor on).
Jun 12, 2021 at 2:01 PM