Mechanic dismantled the engine without permission?

How do you know the first mechanic was correct? You bought the parts, (which is like bringing your own food to a restaurant and asking them to cook it for you), based on his assessment after performing a pretty definitive test, but he didn't go far enough. This engine is listed as an "interference" engine, meaning the valves can be hit and bent if the timing belt jumps a few teeth or breaks. Bent valves don't seal so they cause low or no compression. The problem is compression will also be low on any non-interference engine when valve timing is off due to that jumped timing belt. The only way to know if valve work is needed is to remove the cylinder heads and inspect them. You're angry because the second mechanic did what was necessary to provide an accurate estimate. I agree he should have communicated better what was needed and what he was going to do, but I have a feeling there's more to the story. No mechanic I know is going to put in so much time without some assurance the shop is going to be paid for their efforts. The laws vary between states, but where I am, you have to sign a repair order in one of three places before any work is done. One place says, "do whatever is needed, but don't exceed this dollar amount without consulting me first". You write in that dollar amount, usually as suggested by the service writer. Another place to sign says you don't want an estimate; just fix it. The third place says you want a written estimate before any work is done. They won't even bring the vehicle in the shop if there's no signature on one of those lines.

The problem with providing your own parts is you are taking on a lot of responsibility the shops normally do. It is real common to get brand new parts that are defective or fail much too soon. It's the profits from parts sales that fund getting the defective or wrong parts replaced, and it is what pays to have the mechanic do the job over when he didn't cause the problems. No reputable shop owner would expect you to pay for parts or labor a second time for the same problem, but in this case, the timing belt alone would not repair the engine. It has to be removed a second time, along with the valve repairs, to do it right, so now anything you might have saved is more than spent on doing the job twice.

There are exceptions to this that we are all aware of and appreciate. One is for older or classic cars where parts are hard to find. Car owners may be asked to take on that task to save everyone time and money. That isn't the case with a vehicle as new as yours. You have to decide if lower priced, economy parts are worth the risk of having to do the job over in a year or two, or if you are willing to pay the higher cost of quality parts. No one expects you to know where it is okay to cut corners or where it isn't worth taking the risk, but you made that part of your responsibility.

Some shop owners are happy to have car owners provide their own parts specifically for the reasons I mentioned. If a new part fails, there's no arguing over who is going to pay to do the job over. Doctors have it a lot easier in this regard. Try to get a refund for a procedure or argue that a test wasn't needed. They bury their mistakes. Ours keep coming back to haunt us.

It's also highly doubtful the shop owner would have allowed you to have the vehicle towed away without paying for what was done so far. There should be some paperwork describing what you got for your money, and what else might be needed. If no previous estimate was given, and there was no approval given to go ahead with a written repair order, you may have a case. Today everything we do is with potential lawsuits in mind. We have to cover ourselves at every step, so I find it hard to believe the second mechanic is trying to pull a fast one. I did notice the dollar amount you listed. That seems quite low for the work that is likely needed. It takes that much just for the parts to do a proper timing belt job.

It's too late now, but the better plan probably would have been to install the new timing belt, then recheck compression before the front of the engine was put back together. If luck was on our side, the valves might have been proven to be okay, or it would have shown they needed to be replaced. That way you could have been given the bad news before the additional work was done. If the valves do need to be replaced, you aren't out anything more than you would have been at the start. The sore point is not knowing ahead of time or having the chance to prepare for the final bill.

Be aware too, at the mileage you listed, you're over halfway to when cylinder head gaskets often fail. We don't know what is included when you say, "the top of the engine is taken apart", but if that includes the cylinder heads, you will be getting new head gaskets when the engine is put back together. That's a big job and it requires removing the timing belt, ... Again. That's a big, expensive job a few years down the road that you may be avoiding.

I'd appreciate it if you could add to the story, if possible, so I have a better idea of where this stands now. There's a lot that can be removed from the top of the engine that is actually not such a big deal, but it can look horrible. Is that $800.00 to complete the job and give you back a properly repaired vehicle, or is it just to put things back together without fixing anything? No one should be doing that either since they know you would have to pay the third mechanic to do this all over again. If you have any paperwork, try to upload a copy that we can look at. We will never defend an unscrupulous mechanic or shop owner, but way too often, the misunderstandings and anger are the result of very poor communication. That's a problem that has plagued this industry since forever.

Dandy. This is a legitimate time when you may be asked to order the parts. This way the first mechanic has no involvement with wrong or broken parts, profits on those parts, or responsibility for getting defective parts replaced. This saves you money if you don't mind taking the time.

My bigger concern now is the engine stalled, but now it does run. That proves the timing belt is not broken, but it could have jumped a tooth or two. For every comment you've made so far, I can come up with an argument as to why it has to be wrong, and I can come up with a reason it has to be right. In other words, I'm not helping you yet.

On some other models with interference engines, Chryslers, for example, if the timing belt jumps one tooth, the engine will still run pretty good, but it will be detected, the Check Engine light will turn on, and there will be a diagnostic fault code set for "camshaft and crankshaft sync". (The crankshaft drives the timing belt which drives the camshaft). If it jumps three teeth, valves will be bent. Before it gets that bad, if the timing belt jumps two teeth, the Engine Computer will shut the engine down to protect those valves. There is a totally different problem that makes it appear to the computer as though the timing belt jumped one and a half teeth. That's right on the borderline between the computer shutting down the engine or letting it run. The engine could stall for you, but run later for the mechanic. That's one source of confusion.

Next, since the second guy obviously worked on it, we can't be sure what he did or in what state he got the engine to run. Did he check the timing belt and reset it if it had jumped? If not, why is the engine running now? If he did, why did he go further and take the running engine apart? Throughout all this, has anyone read and recorded the diagnostic fault codes? That should always be one of the first steps. I should stop here and point out those fault codes never ever say to replace a part or that one is bad, as way too many people think. They only indicate the circuit that needs further diagnosis or the unacceptable operating condition. When a sensor or other part is referenced in a fault code, it is actually the cause of that code about half of the time. First we have to rule out wiring and connector terminal problems, and mechanical problems associated with that part.

There is a much more common cause of the symptoms as I know them so far. That is a failing crankshaft position sensor or camshaft position sensor. (Those are the two the computer uses to know when the timing belt has jumped a tooth). Both of those sensors commonly fail by becoming heat-sensitive, then they work again after cooling down, typically for an hour or more. This is very common on all car brands. Most often those sensors work fine while you're driving due to natural air flow keeping them cool. They're more likely to fail during periods of extended idling or slow-speed driving, or right after a hot engine is stopped, then restarted, as in when stopping for gas. Engine heat has time to migrate up to the sensors causing one to fail. This is the most common reason why an engine will stall for the driver, then restart later for the mechanic or tow truck driver.

To add to the frustration on everyone's part, both of those sensors often do not set fault codes just from cranking the engine. The computer needs more time to detect the missing signal, as when a stalling engine is coasting to a stop. Just cranking the engine later may not set that code again. In that case, we use a scanner to view live data the computer is seeing and responding to. In the case of Chrysler products, both sensors are listed with a "No" or "Present" to indicate whether the signals are showing up during cranking. We watch for the one that stays on "No" to know which circuit to diagnose. A similar method is used on other car brands to show the same information.

If I was the shop owner, and I found my mechanic disassembled the engine without prior approval from you, and that work was not necessary, I'd insist he reassemble everything at the shop's expense, but he would not be paid to do so since it was his fault. That is part of what is called "flat rate". That's a method of charging customers and paying mechanics' wages based on a large book that spells out what every procedure should take for time. As the shop owner, I would expect you to receive your vehicle back in the condition it showed up in. If new parts were installed already, it often takes just as much time to remove them and put the original ones back in. That's time the next jobs have to wait, or a couple of jobs that can't be taken in because the mechanic is tied up on your car. It may cost the shop less in the long run to just leave the new parts in, but they may try to negotiate a partial payment from you, especially if they can prove the old parts were defective or worn excessively. As a customer, I would feel obligated to pay for the parts, and I'd be grateful if I did not have to pay for the labor.

If you DID sign something, the next issue is whether the dollar amount agreed to was exceeded without your permission. Here in Wisconsin, once it is known that limit is going to be exceeded, it is sufficient to get approval to keep going over the phone. You don't have to run back to the shop to sign the repair order again. The service advisor will typically ask for your driver's license number so he has proof he really called you.

That leads to an area I'm much less familiar with. That's if you did sign the repair order agreeing to a dollar limit, that limit was not exceeded, but you refuse to pay for the work done. If this goes to court, this is why the shops are very strict about documenting everything in writing so they are protected. Before it goes that far, the shop owner will try to negotiate a plan that is acceptable to both parties, especially when there is a gray area as to who is in the wrong. They won't negotiate with customers who are just trying to get the bill lowered for no reason. In most states, a verbal exchange is not sufficient. Work to be performed should be in writing, meaning the repair order.

As a mechanic, I've had cases where I went too far without permission. This usually revolved around one of my specialties, suspension and alignment. I was paid 1.3 hours to perform a four-wheel-alignment, with an additional half hour per any rear wheel that had to be disassembled to install an alignment shim. It was the service writer's job to tell the customer the cost of the alignment, and the cost of additional rear-wheel work, if it was found to be needed. Very often the customer signed the repair order for the dollar amount to cover the basic alignment, but not anything additional for the rear wheels. It takes a lot of time to set up the alignment equipment and tear it down. That's part of the 1.3 hours. If I found a shim was needed in one rear wheel, I could stand there waiting for approval for a long time. That meant I'd be starting my next appointment up to an hour late. Often, while waiting for that approval, I just went ahead and put the shim in, then finished up the rest of the alignment. By the time I got the approval, the entire job was done, test-driven, and parked. Everyone was happy. If that approval never showed up, either because no one could be reached, or the customer was on a tight budget, no one made me take that shim back out. The customer got a better alignment, and no one asked them to pay for the extra part or service.

By the way, I had a reputation at the dealership for working much slower than everyone else, but I had almost no "comebacks", or complaints, and very high customer satisfaction. I made it up to the dealership owners by working through lunch hour and after hours. That alignment that paid me 1.3 hours often took up to two hours, but in ten years, not one single person there ever yelled at me for working too slowly. They valued the satisfied, repeat customers.

Enough for blowing my own horn. I was mulling over another comment of value last night regarding the $800.00. I don't know yet what that was supposed to cover, so I looked up the various procedures that might be part of this story. For a 2003 Sedona, replacing the timing belt is supposed to take 3.4 hours with an additional 0.4 hours if the vehicle has air conditioning. (There's more to take apart if there's AC). If a camshaft oil seal is found to be leaking, or if the mechanic thinks it's a good idea to replace it due to high mileage, that's another 0.2 hour. Total is four hours. The belt is listed as costing $107.00. That is usually cost from the dealer's parts department. Aftermarket sources usually cost less and are perfectly fine as far as quality. I know it sounds expensive, just like with veterinary bills and doctor bills, but I don't know how shops are able to survive when they "only" charge $125.00 to $150.00 per hour. I wrote up a list years ago of all the taxes, insurances, costs to meet government regulations, and all the expenses they have to pay before even considering wages and benefits. It was a two-column list that filled the page. Even if they charged $100.00 per hour, you'd have a $500.00 bill just for the timing belt. That is on the low side of other bills I've seen.

Now when you get to cylinder head gaskets, the "left bank" is listed as taking 10.8 hours. The right bank takes 6.9 hours. It is standard practice to do both sides at the same time, just like you do not buy just one shoe at a time. A large part of each cylinder head involves parts that have to be removed for each side, so those are only done once in the procedure. The total to do both cylinder head gaskets is 11.8 hours. To say that a different way, once the left bank is disassembled, it takes just one more hour to do the right bank at the same time. The head gaskets are listed as costing $87.64 each. I posted what we look at from the Flat Rate book below. By using that as a guide, it ensures you're quoted the same amount of time from multiple shops. The only variable is their hourly shop rate. Mechanics get paid by those listings too. If one invests in expensive, special tools, or advanced training, he might get done faster, but you pay the same amount. If he works slowly, like I did, or has less experience, it will take him longer than the times given, but he only gets paid for the times listed, and you do not pay more. Think of a barber with a set rate for a haircut. Doesn't matter if you're almost bald and he has to cut three hairs, or if you look like a hippie and he spends all afternoon slicing the locks off. Both pay the same amount.

The point I haven't made yet is replacing the head gaskets is usually over a $1500.00 job. Part of that job involves removing the timing belt, so that procedure is already partially done. If a new belt is needed, the additional labor time will be less than what's listed for just the belt. $800.00 isn't going to cover the head gasket job. That's why I'm questioning what was done already. There's usually a plastic dress-up cover on top of the engine, then the intake manifold must be removed. Those two parts alone can look like major engine work was done. The closest I can come to calculating a legitimate cost of $800.00 is to replace the timing belt and reassemble the intake manifold. I would sit down and negotiate that with the shop owner as it suggests the intake manifold did not need to be removed. The exception would be if that is what was necessary to inspect other parts, namely the lifter you mentioned, but that too is suspect. One collapsed lifter will make a ticking sound, and you might notice a slight misfire or engine vibration, but that will not cause the engine to stall.

What I'm hoping this boils down to is the legitimate repairs, once we know what those are, will cost around $800.00, leaving you with a properly-running engine. If that turns out to be true, neither mechanic is really at fault for their services. What does leave the sour taste is you were not kept informed of what was needed. We really dislike surprises except when we hand someone a final bill that's less than they were expecting.

I'm afraid I still might not have provided the help you need, so if you can post a photo of any paperwork, or if you can obtain a written list of the parts that need to be reassembled, those might help. One thing I do want you to watch out for is if other work is needed, lets say the cylinder head gaskets, it is to your disadvantage to insist the engine be put back together, then taken apart again by a third shop. You would be paying multiple times to have the same work done over and over.

I should mention too the water pump is driven by the timing belt. As such, it is no longer a one-hour job to replace it. Every conscientious mechanic in the world who has your best interest at heart is going to want to replace that water pump along with any critical tensioner or idler pullies and adjusters. Those parts and the additional labor aren't included in the labor times I posted. To not replace those parts while they're down in there would be like buying a whole new wardrobe, but continue wearing my old, smelly socks. It doesn't make economic sense to ignore them and take a chance one of them won't fail soon. Going in a second time would cost just as much as it does to do the timing belt.

Is it possible the parts you see in the back of the vehicle are actually from the front of the engine? A lot of stuff has to be removed to get to the timing belt. Often that is the only way to find the timing marks to inspect them to see if the belt has jumped a tooth. Based on the mileage you listed, the mechanics should be suspicious the belt does need to be replaced. All manufacturers have a recommended replacement interval to avoid expensive valve damage. Not too many years ago, Honda recommended their timing belts be replaced every 75,000 miles, and they commonly broke at 65,000 miles, leaving owners with very expensive engine repairs. Very few manufacturers list more than 100,000 miles as their recommendations.

Let me know as much as you can learn, then I'll do my best to figure out the best plan of attack.

Thank you. I'm feeling better now. In the first two photos, we're seeing the cylinder heads still bolted to the engine block, so those were not removed. It's only the valve covers that have been removed. That may be necessary to get to the timing belt. It depends on the engine. There's nothing unexpected or inappropriate there. I added a red arrow pointing to the timing belt. Feel and look at it as best you can to see if any teeth are missing. That's one of the first signs it's overdue for replacement. Next, push up and down on it right between the two sprockets, (just below the point on the arrow). You should not be able to flex it more than about 1/4" with hard pressure. If it is loose or flexes easily, a tensioning device is worn out. That will allow a good belt to jump and possibly lead to expensive valve damage.

In the second drawing, I circled in red the additional items every conscientious mechanic is going to want to replace. To not replace them suggests he is more interested in saving you a few dollars today while risking another expensive repair later. I can rub two nickels together until they squeal, but even I would replace these parts on my vehicles. I added the last two drawings just because they showed up under this topic.

Your third photo just shows the fresh air intake tube. That's a minor part that takes about a minute to reattach. Your fourth photo shows one of the valve covers. Having the "Oil" cap suggests that one goes on the front of the engine. While that looks like a big part, and there should be two of them, it is light enough to be lifted by one strong girl or two weak boys. Woops. That comment was meant for a cylinder head. Yours will be made of aluminum and could weigh perhaps 40 to 50 pounds each. A small boy can carry two valve covers. They're light but will be greasy or oily.

Everything I see here so far can be reinstalled in less than an hour by a mechanic familiar with this engine. Being unfamiliar with this one specifically, I would probably take an hour and a few minutes. The next question has to do with the front of the engine. If that is apart to the point you can see most of the parts shown in the drawings, that 4.0-hour job is half done. The other half is to put the parts back together. It depends on whether any new parts were already installed.

If the second mechanic wants $800.00 to replace the timing belt, and all the components I circled in red, I'd suggest you were given a fair quote, although it could have been presented and handled a lot better, meaning more professionally.

One thing that I find very discouraging is the two parts I circled in blue. One is the camshaft position sensor, a part with a known failure record on all car brands. The other is the "crank angle sensor". That's a fancy name for the crankshaft position sensor, another part that fails regularly. Depending on the engine and the model year, the engine will not run if one or both of them fail. 2003 is right in the middle of where both sensors must be working for the engine to start, but then if one fails while running, the engine will continue to run until it is stopped, then it won't restart. On many newer models the engine will always restart with one failed sensor, but power or top speed might be limited. On most other engines, including my Ram truck and Dodge Caravan, those are both very easy to get to, so they only get replaced when necessary. Each one takes about five minutes to replace. With this design with the sensors behind the front engine cover, replacing the camshaft position sensor calls for 1.1 hours, and the crankshaft position sensor calls for 2.5 hours. Now you have a tough decision. With two greatly different times listed, it suggests the front cover is in two pieces with only the top half being removed to get to the cam sensor. Regardless, replacing either one is a big job that most competent do-it-yourselfers aren't equipped to handle. Do you wait for one to fail, then call a tow truck and pay another expensive repair bill, or do you have them replaced right now while they're out in the open? Logic would dictate replace them now, like with the timing belt tensioning parts, but unlike with those mechanical parts, new electrical parts also have a very high failure rate. You might be removing a properly-working sensor to replace it with one that is just as likely to fail in short order. This is where I would defer to a Kia specialist to find out what kind of experience he has had.

If there's no one to ask, I would have both sensors replaced for one simple reason. The engine stalled, but it ran okay later. To me that says it is time to replace the timing belt based just on mileage, and given the difficulty if you wait, and the chance one of them caused the stalling, get them replaced now. I don't like spending other people's money, but you won't remember that small. Additional cost when you're sitting on the side of the road in a pile of tears, . In the middle of winter, . On a Saturday night.

As for right now, it's a good idea to cover the cylinder heads and camshafts to keep dust and dirt out. Newspaper works well, as does rags like from old pillowcases. Most mechanics get pretty excited about dirt in this area, but if you keep leaves and bugs out, minor dust will get carried away by the oil to the oil filter. A bigger concern is mice. They love all the little holes in the cylinder heads. I have a number of cars sitting outside, so I have cats to protect them. A telltale hint to your mechanic is if he sees acorn chunks. He will check a little closer before closing things up.

For my final comment of value, if time is not a big concern, you might look for a nearby community college with an Automotive program. We had a few dozen people who knew the value of live work to give the kids real-world experience, and they would sit on a broken car for months until it fit what we were teaching. We taught eight areas, each once a year, for eight weeks. That gave them eight weeks starting in August to have engine repairs done. We charged ten dollars per hour for what the job was supposed to take, (flat rate), but since half our time was spent in the classroom and other classes, it could take a few weeks to finish a few-hour job. We also got parts at real good discounts, then marked them up ten percent to form a "breakage" fund in case we damaged something. My kids were very responsible and well supervised, but again, the drawback to the low cost can be a long wait. They also will not do engine work during other classes like transmissions or brakes. To do so put us in competition with the employers who might hire our graduates.

Another thing to be aware of is we always advertised that there was no warranty. In reality, we always took care of any problems that cropped up, but it covered us when the students graduated and were gone, and for other times of the year when our engine repair toys were put away until next year.

Any instructor will be happy to discuss your engine and let you know if they can help. If they do solve this, treats next week are always appreciated. (Did I mention choleate chip cookies)?

AGGGHHH. I'm sorry, but I was two sentences away from posting my last 30-minute reply, and my computer shut down due to a dead battery. I'll have to go home and retype everything for you. I'll be back tomorrow with more wondrous wisdom.

I'm back. Our replies are out of sync, so you may have seen some of my wondrous comments by now. Since the cylinder heads have not been removed, the cylinders are not exposed so no dirt will get in there. You can use newspaper or an old pillowcase to cover the cylinder heads, but the bigger concern is mice. They love to build nests in there. I have multiple cars that sit outside, so I keep a platoon of cats to patrol the area.

Reinstalling the two valve covers will not take long. Yours look very similar to those on older Mitsubishi engines built for Chrysler. I had one of them in my '88 Grand Caravan. The valve cover gaskets are rubber and are reusable. It's the front of the engine that will be more involved. If the timing belt was replaced at around 60,000 miles, leave it alone. I would recommend replacing the two sensors since you're right down there, and given the symptoms.

I have a suspicion this soap opera all started due to one of them. I also think there was a problem with the original compression test. Either the hose wasn't screwed in far enough to seal, or the wrong hose was used. A similar hose is used for a different test where air is pumped in to locate the source of compression leaks. During a compression test, it will let the compression readings stay at "0" or very low. The correct hose has what looks like a tire valve to hold the pressurized air by the gauge until it is released.

We always talk about how fuel and spark are needed for an engine to run, but we forget that compression is needed too, and the timing of the events is critical. Based on the fact the engine has run at times, we know compression has to be okay, and most likely timing is too. Based on the fact these sensors are common failure items on all car brands, and there's a real good chance one of them caused the initial stalling, it would not make economic sense to not replace them, especially since half of that time-consuming job is already done.

You also mentioned the battery running dead multiple times. That is to be expected. It's due to the current drawn by the multiple computer memories. As far back as the late '80s, Chrysler allowed up to 35 milliamps, (0.035 amps) of current to keep the memories alive. They said at that rate, a good, fully-charged battery would still be strong enough to crank an engine fast enough to start after sitting for three weeks. Today that is the industry standard unless specified otherwise by the manufacturer. Cadillac is one that allows up to 50 milliamps.

Of bigger importance, any diagnostic fault codes in most or all computers gets erased when the battery is disconnected or run dead, then that valuable information is lost. If an intermittent problem exists, you'll have to drive the vehicle and wait for that problem to be detected and the code set again.

I hope that gives you some more ideas. Bring on any other questions or comments.