Cranks but will not start

Tiny
JEREMY TACKETT
  • MEMBER
  • 1999 PLYMOUTH NEON
  • 2.0L
  • 4 CYL
  • 2WD
  • AUTOMATIC
  • 144,500 MILES
1999 Plymouth Neon Highline 2.0L 16valve SOHC.
At first I had a no start problem, turning the key it would just crank and crank repeatedly (fuel pump "does" bzzz/hmm, key in "on" position) without starting. I checked codes from the "CEL" (on-off-on-off-on while holding in trip/odometer)flash trick. Replaced camshaft sensor, I tested for fuel from that port on the fuel rail by pushing in on the valve (?) And gas "does" stream out. Car starts and driven three to four days(locally/to-from). Then again, no start, motor only cranks. Got "CEL codes" then replaced crankshaft position sensor, checked fuel rail and gas does stream out, turn key to on position and can hear fuel pump "bzzz/hmm, " motor cranked and started, I let it run ten minutes (?), Turned it off, thirty minutes (?) Later, motor cranks and starts, drove it about five to ten miles stopped at a gas station, filled to read half a tank of gas (was at 1/8 of tank), two hundred feet (?) From leaving the station the motor shuts off. Pulled over put it in "park, " turned key and would only crank, no start, checked over everything, "no" gas streamed out from fuel rail. Key at "on" position, you can hear the fuel pump (buzz/hmm), still no start. Spray some starting fluid, (throttle body-to-brake booster hose and into cylinder number one) the motor starts, drives two to three miles motor shuts off. I pull over put car in "park" turn key and motor cranks and starts (without using starting fluid), drive thirty seconds motor shuts off. (Did this routine three different times within ten minutes) until constant no start would only crank repeatedly with no stream from fuel rail, fuel pump does make "bzzz/hmm" sound when key is at on position. While all this cranks but no start is happening, there is no movement from the tachometer (stays at zero) while the motor is cranking. No blown fuses and all relays seem to be working (can here them click/clicking).
Sorry for the long message I just wanted to explain the details. Any suggestions on a diagnosis or on my next steps to resolve this problem would be very helpful. Car is sitting on the side of highway, two more days and it gets towed by the city.
CEL trouble codes were (11)-(12)-(37)-(42) then the obvious (55) which means scan is complete.
Before leaving the car on the highway the code (42) was read which was not reading at the beginning of the problems. (42) is dealing with the EGR?
Sunday, September 2nd, 2018 AT 1:22 PM

3 Replies

Tiny
CARADIODOC
  • MECHANIC
  • 33,873 POSTS
Two-digit fault codes are used on 1995 and older models. You should be getting three-digit fault codes.

Thank you for including lots of detail, especially that this is a single overhead cam engine. There is a somewhat common problem that I ran into once myself, and the clue was later found to be the code 37. That has absolutely nothing to do with the problem, and I do not know why it sets that code, but it does. On the 1996 and newer engines, you will eventually trigger a code "cam and crank sync", which implies the timing belt has jumped a tooth. In fact, if the timing belt jumps one tooth, the Engine Computer will detect it, turn on the Check Engine light, and set that code for cam and crank sync. At two teeth off, it shuts the engine down to protect the valves because this is an interference engine. If it were to make it to three teeth off, valves will be bent.

Start by checking the timing belt, and when the marks look like they are lined up perfectly, the common cause of setting the cam and crank sync code is there is a dowel pin between the camshaft and its sprocket. That pin shears off, then the sprocket can gradually slip and rotate on the camshaft. While the timing marks are correct, that only means the sprocket is in proper time. The camshaft is slightly retarded, and the camshaft position sensor is on the opposite side, on the driver's side of the cylinder head. The Engine Computer just knows the camshaft is late. It does not know why. If you are right between the equivalent of one or two teeth off, you can have an intermittent problem.

As for the fuel pressure, you cannot really go by that for clues. The computer runs the fuel pump for two seconds every time you turn on the ignition switch. That is why you have fuel pressure when you have the crank/no-start. It turns it on again during engine rotation, (cranking or running), and it knows that by the signal pulses it receives from the camshaft position sensor and the crankshaft position sensor. It is also the mismatched timing of those pulses that tells it when to shut the engine down to protect it. It does that by turning off the automatic shutdown, (ASD) relay. That relay powers up the ignition coil pack, fuel pump or pump relay, alternator field, oxygen sensor heaters, and other stuff. If the computer decides to shut the engine down while you are driving, that fuel pressure might be used up and drop real low. Pressure could be low when you check it one time, and it could be normal from turning the ignition switch back on at a different time. Also, just watching for the spray from the test port never gives reliable results. I was told I was being tricked many times by people smarter than me, and I found them to be right. You can get a huge spray from ten pounds of pressure, which is way too low for the engine to run on, and at times 40 pounds of pressure can look like it is too low.

As I mentioned, you should be getting three-digit fault codes. If you need a list of the definitions, go here:

https://www.2carpros.com/trouble_codes/obd2

If you really are getting two-digit fault codes, here is the list of definitions specific to Chrysler models, 1995 and older:

https://www.2carpros.com/articles/retrieve-trouble-codes-for-chrysler-dodge-plymouth-odb1-1995-and-earlier-car-mini-van-and-light-trucks

1995 was the first model year for the Neon, but they actually were on the road already in early 1994.
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Sunday, September 2nd, 2018 AT 9:44 PM
Tiny
JEREMY TACKETT
  • MEMBER
  • 4 POSTS
I have a 1999 Plymouth Neon and by holding down the trip/odometer toggle as I put the key in and switching to the "on position"-off-on-off-on and release the toggle the CEL flashes in sequences of two-digit codes with longer pause (CEL not illuminated) separating different codes if present then ending in (55) meaning the scan is finished. For example, codes (12)&(32)=
flash. Flash, flash, *longerpause*. Flash, flash, flash, flash, flash, *longerpause*,
flash-five times, flash-five times (55) finished.
Update:
Codes 12 and 32 is what is showing now on the car though I did get it to start, run, and driving as good as it gets being a 1999 Neon, lol. What I did was took the new crankshaft sensor back off and cleaned the wire harness/connector and cleaned inside where the sensor sits. Noticed the lock on the connector was not locking right so with the slightest push it would lose connection with the sensor. Soon after I got the lock to slide over and the sensor was secure. I then took off the EGR valve assembly, unattached the hoses and cleaned it thoroughly as well and put it back on and cleaned up the throttle body and its ports. Put the battery back in turned the key motor cranks and voila the car starts. I veered back onto the highway drove it around for bout a half-hour with no problems. Got home turned the car off and turn it back on and it started, I left again drive around about an hour no problems no hesitation the idle seems smoother the motor seems more quiet (due to cleaning the throttle body and EGR) got back home shut it off turn the key to see if it would start again and yes started with no long periods of cranking fires right up.
I would say with that crankshaft sensor connector being loose because the faulty slide lock and loosing connection was the culprit.
Thanks for the reply I love how you guys at 2CarPros. Com are real people with real replies to questions being asked and providing great feedback. I browse the website very often on different topics but this is the second time I have posted a question and received a reply, two thumbs up to all staff at 2CarPros. Com. I am sure you guys are saving people a lot of money throughout the years. Keep it up! Thanks
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Monday, September 3rd, 2018 AT 4:22 AM
Tiny
CARADIODOC
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You owe me a cookie, ... Chocolate chip, please. Not for the answer but for being so darn cute!

I do not know why you are getting two-digit codes. They should be showing up in the odometer display. Someone must have replaced the driver's door with one from a 1995 model. That means the door sticker will show a manufacture date of 1994, and therefore it is now a 1995 model. Best explanation I can come up with.

To add a couple of points of great value, to get a fault code related to the cam or crank sensors, it is usually necessary to have a stalled engine that is coasting to a stop while you are driving. That gives the Engine Computer time to detect the missing signal while the other one is present. It seems almost all the time, if you erased that code previously, it will not set again just from cranking the engine. When that happens, we connect a scanner to view live data and see what the computer is seeing. I have a Chrysler DRB3 for all of my vehicles. That lists each sensor with a "No" or "Present" during cranking to show if the signals are showing up. I am pretty sure aftermarket scanners do something similar.

The last exciting note is if you recently disconnected the battery during any of the work you did, idle speed will be too low. The engine may not start and run unless you hold the accelerator pedal down 1/4". You will not get the nice idle flare-up to 1,500 rpm at start-up, and it will tend to stall at stop signs. "Minimum throttle" has to be relearned before the Engine Computer will know when it must be in control of idle speed. That is the only thing that does not get relearned right away automatically. When this happens, to meet the conditions for the relearn to take place, drive at highway speed with the engine warmed up, then coast for at least seven seconds without touching the pedals.
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Monday, September 3rd, 2018 AT 8:49 PM

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