Alignment after steering rack 'product upgrade'?

Hi,

When you check the thrust angle, in a perfect world, it should be 0.0 degrees. If you can imagine an imaginary line drawn perpendicular to the center of the rear axle and down the center of the vehicle and to the front axle, both axles would be perfectly centered.

This is used to make sure both the front and rear wheels are perfectly in line with each other and centered to prevent what is called tracking. Also, it is used to make sure the wheelbase (distances between the front and rear wheels) is equal.

Should it be 0.0? Yes, it should. Will 0.03 hurt? In reality, which is 3/10 of one degree, so basically, it is virtually nothing. But you certainly have a right to have it set to 0.0.

I hope this helps. Let me know if you have other questions.

Take care,

Joe

What I would suggest is to drop off a box of donuts, or cookies, (chocolate chip were my favorite), in thanks for doing such a good job. There are always a range of tolerances for each value, and your alignment shows you had a pretty conscientious mechanic. Thank you for posting the printout. I thought I was the only alignment specialist who left one in every vehicle.

"Caster" on the front wheels is not adjustable on about 99 percent of front-wheel-drive cars, and it usually doesn't need to be. "Camber" on all four wheels is commonly not adjustable on the majority of import models. When it is not in specs, it is usually due to sagged coil springs due to age, not mileage. The lower ride height changes the geometric relationship of the suspension parts. When that happens, even an alignment to include readjusting camber won't solve a bad tire wear problem. Only new springs will fix that.

In this case the mechanic left camber on all four wheels just as they came from the factory.
That is to be expected. It appears he tweaked right rear toe to bring it into specs. That is not part of this repair. If he did that, it was on his own time to make the final product as good as possible. It is also real common for the slip plates on the alignment hoist to stick from dirt or rust buildup. Those need to slide around freely from the slightest touch. That can cause the alignment measurements to change from things like opening and closing a door, tugging on an adjustment, or simply tightening a bolt.

The first thing I noticed is your mechanic has his alignment computer set to read each measurement to two places after the decimal point. That makes for real precise measurements at the huge cost of having to take a lot more time on each car. They can be set to read to just tenths of a degree. That is done by people who are more interested in speed, to get more cars in and out each day, than for customer satisfaction. I always had my computers set to read to hundredths of a degree. For reference, back as far as the late 1980s, mechanical alignment equipment could barely read to 1/16 degree with any precision, but that was good enough for old, heavy, rear-wheel-drive vehicles. Now we're reading to the hundredth of a degree.

Another thing to be aware of is the alignment computer can be set to tighten up the range of tolerances that are displayed. That means each adjustment has to be closer to "perfect" before the number turns green on the display. If that is not done, any value shown in green is okay, meaning it's within specs. If the "reduce tolerances" button is pressed, it means for a value to be shown in green, it has to be even closer to "perfect", or really, really okay. I can't tell if that was done here, but the tolerance readings typically would not be reduced for a warranty alignment or when checking a vehicle as it came from the factory. Most cars don't require that level of precision.

Also be aware with the level of precision alignment computers provide, you will never get every value perfect. To try to do that would be like building a house and demanding the final product be within 1/16" of the design. There's just too many variables even with all the precision in the world. You're correct that rear thrust angle should be 0.0 degrees, but if you check 100 cars, not one will actually have that. Your car is showing .03 degrees, which, if rounded off, is 0.0 degrees, as you listed. Your mechanic is measuring to a second decimal place for more precision, but he will never get it to 0.00 degrees. This is so close to perfect, I would be thrilled if all of my alignments were that good. Also note the value is shown in gray meaning the manufacturer doesn't even supply or specify a spec for that value. It's only purpose for even being measured is so the computer can show the mechanic where to adjust front toe to set each wheel perfectly parallel to the rear wheels. That's to ensure the steering wheel is straight. Rear toe is not adjustable on a lot of front-wheel-drive vehicles, and never on vehicles with a solid rear axle. It still gets measured automatically so the computer knows where to have us adjust front toe, but it's not uncommon to find a thrust angle of a half inch, (1.00 degree). While that may sound like a lot, it's not nearly enough for someone following you to notice "dog-tracking". By the time you can notice that on another car, thrust angle is going to be a good couple of inches.

I must apologize here. I always set my computers to read toe in inches and fractions of an inch. They can also be set to read toe in degrees, as has been done here. I can relate one form of measurement to the other, but not good enough to describe it. Basically what it comes down to is the back of your car is offset from the front by roughly 1/128 of an inch. With that level of precision, a butterfly on your mirror will change those values. Simply opening a door a few inches will change some of the measurements a lot due to the weight transfer in the car body.

If the alignment was okay before the service, the only thing that needs to be adjusted when replacing the rack and pinion steering gear is "front toe" on each front wheel. To get those into specs takes the better part of a minute on each wheel. To get them so close to perfect, as you have here, takes longer, but the value we're most interested in is the "Steer ahead". When that is 0.0, it means overall, the two front wheels are parallel to the two rear wheels. That is adjusted when the steering wheel is locked in the straight, or level, orientation. To say that a different way, imagine you have all four wheel perfectly parallel to each other and the steering wheel is perfectly straight when you're going down the road. Now imagine you lift the seat up and turn it a little, then set it back down. You may feel crooked, but the wheels, steering wheel, alignment, and tire wear haven't changed. Your thrust angle would be off a lot, but the "steer ahead" angle would still be right on the money.

For my last comment of value, be aware all these numbers on the printout only apply to a vehicle that is standing still, and with no load. All of these number will go so far into the red when a driver sits in it that no amount of adjustment can bring them back to specs. What the specifications say is if you set them to the values shown when the car is standing still, that will result in the best tire wear and handling when it is being driven on the highway. Now consider the wide range of weight difference and distribution depending on who is driving and how many passengers you have. Instead, there's three things you need to look at. The first is the steering wheel should be straight when you're driving on a straight road. The second is the car should keep going straight when you let go of the steering wheel. That is a function of camber. It should be nearly equal on both front tires. They want to pull in the direction they're leaning. We want both pulls to be equal to offset each other. The third thing is tire wear, but that takes some time to show up. With the numbers on your printout, tire wear should be very good. That's a whole different topic we can cover later, if necessary. For now, check out this article:

https://www.2carpros.com/articles/how-car-tires-work

to learn more about tire wear. I can help with interpreting any patterns you see that don't look normal.

Let me know if there's anything I can explain better.

Hi,

No problem whatsoever. It's funny when there is a warranty repair. The labor time is always less than if it wasn't a warranty issue. Regardless, keep in mind that he works for Honda, so he is trained properly. Plus, he has likely done them in the past which makes him faster at doing it.

Please feel free to come back anytime in the future if you have questions or need help with anything. You are always welcome here.

Take care and enjoy the new vehicle.

Joe

Allow me to add my follow-up too. Chrysler had a service bulletin for a customer satisfaction issue in the '90s. It involved replacing the rack and pinion steering gear for a very faint chirp when first starting to return the steering wheel back to center. It was on the Stratus, by far their most miserable model to work on. I don't remember how much time it paid, but I do know I went way over that, and no one at the dealership ever once in my ten years yelled at me for being too slow. I had the best reputation in the shop for having the least "comebacks", meaning customer complaints with the repair. I took extra time to be sure the steering wheels were absolutely perfectly straight, and the rest of the alignment was as close to perfect as I could get it.

In an 80-hour two-week pay period I was still able to earn over 100 hours by working through lunch hour and after hours to take some of the load off my service writer. We always had a couple of complainers, but we had a lot more very conscientious mechanics in our shop. The same was true for most of our competitors in our city.

To elaborate on Joe's comments, warranty-allotted times goes back to the 1960s when GM started this. For every procedure, their mechanic had all the needed tools on a tray next to the vehicle. That vehicle had already been driven in and was in the air on the hoist. He had practiced the job many times, then he was timed with a stopwatch. If he dropped a tool on the floor, the stopwatch stopped while he picked it up. If he broke a bolt, the stopwatch stopped as removing and replacing it wasn't a normal part of the procedure. When something was needed from the parts department, you guessed it, the stopwatch stopped while he waited his turn to be waited on. If he had to look in the service manual, naturally the stopwatch stopped. The only thing he had going for him was every step was done with hand tools.

Once the mechanic was on his own, power tools and additional experience allowed him to get the jobs done in the prescribed amount of time. These times are called "flat rate" times. There's giant books that list these times for every job and every part of a job, for every car model and year. That way, when writing a repair estimate, all shops are expected to quote the same times for the same procedures. Only their hourly labor rates vary. It allows you to compare estimates from multiple shops.

Those flat rate guides usually list two times for each procedure. The one we've been talking about is the "warranty" times. Those are always shorter due to the mechanic has had factory training, previous experience, the right specialty tools, and very importantly, nothing is rusty yet.

When the car is a few years old, simply removing a bolt can go from a ten-second job to taking over a half hour if it's rusty and / or breaks. He doesn't get any extra time for struggling with that bolt, and that misery can show up many times during the repair. I used to think I had reached the pinnacle of success when working at the dealership, but I figured out later it was the mechanics at the independent repair shops who had earned my respect. They had to work on a different brand and model every day, and know all the systems on all of them. They also get the rusty bolts, and the unrelated parts that crumble when touched, due to rust or other deterioration. It's for those reasons the flat rate times are longer for vehicles not in warranty. They're much more realistic, and they have one really big advantage. When you're quoted one hour labor for a certain job, you know exactly how much you'll be paying, regardless of what happens. If the job actually takes 1 1/2 hours, you still pay for one hour. The mechanic gets one hour of pay for that job.

If the mechanic invests in very expensive specialty tools, or advanced training, or he has considerable experience, he might get the job done in 45 minutes. You still pay for one hour, but the mechanic can do more repairs in a day, so he earns more. Compare this to a barber having a set fee for a haircut. It doesn't matter if the customers are long-haired hippies, or if they each have just three hairs left on their heads. They all pay the same rate, even though some haircuts take longer than others.

You would worry that this system encourages mechanics to cut corners or to be satisfied with a shoddy job so they can get on to the next car sooner, but it has checks and balances built in. That is when you come back with a complaint or the job wasn't done correctly, that mechanic gets to do the job over with no additional cost to you, and no additional hours, or pay for the mechanic. In other words, he has to work for free to make the job right. He loses the customer's respect, and he may lose his next job if it gets assigned to a different mechanic. It's in his best interest to do the job right the first time. That's why I never worried about hurrying or meeting a prescribed time. It's also why I worked through lunch hour to help my service writer keep to his schedule of appointments.

One last thing to be aware of is in some shops, two or more people may work on your car at the same time. It could be possible for two people to complete a two-hour repair in one hour. That might make you suspicious if you get your car back so quickly. Usually the shop manager assigns multiple people to a job to catch up on a backlog of waiting jobs or to help get the owner back on the road sooner to keep them happy. It doesn't mean the job wasn't done properly.

(Don't forget the chocolate chip cookies).