Reversed jumper cables damage

Tiny
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Wow, I had no idea changing a battery was so involved nowadays. Don't remember it being such an ordeal back in the 70s. Everything is so computerized now I guess it is to be expected. Good news is, according to the dealership, the tow truck company is prepared to pay for a new battery and install if needed. If for some reason they do not compensate me, your answer makes me feel confident that I could do it myself, but in that case I will check with the dealership first--I don't want to invalidate any remaining warranties or have to take the jeep in to have some codes reset--just more hassle. FYI, I live in a small town in So. Oregon, about 15 miles away from the dealer and grocery stores and doctors. So I don't like to make any avoidable trips into town--my Rubi is not very fuel efficient since I had the lift kit and larger tires installed a year or so ago :) And, unfortunately, I cannot afford to drive to Wisconsin to bring you cookies, so I will make a donation to the website. How much I am not currently sure, because I don't know how much out-of-pocket expense I may have because of this unfortunate mishap--hopefully no out-of-pocket. Regardless, I will donate what I can afford.

As I mentioned, the mechanic is still troubleshooting the stereo system, and has not gotten to the other tests. And as they are closed until Sunday, I will not have any updates until then. This is excruciating being without wheels for so long, but I am a patient person and I want them to check every important thing that may have been damaged from the reversed polarity--I don't want to get stuck with a bill later for some undiscovered damage that was likely caused by this. Thank you for getting back to me. I will keep you posted. Thank you for all your help!
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Wednesday, November 23rd, 2016 AT 6:36 PM
Tiny
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Please let us know happens so it will help others. Nice work Caradiodoc!

Best, Ken
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Saturday, November 26th, 2016 AT 7:40 PM
Tiny
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Yes, excellent work Caradiodoc! I'm still waiting to hear an update from the dealership. No mechanic available until tomorrow Sunday due to Thanksgiving weekend. My jeep is still in the shop (it will be 8 days tomorrow, without a loner); last update was they were tracing a bad wire to the stereo system, and had not yet run a full load output test, which will tell me if the alternator was damaged from the reversed cables. I still do not know what out of pocket expense I will have to shoulder: hopefully zilch. As soon as I know, I will know how much of a donation I can make to the site.

Caradiodoc I will post another response as soon as I can get back in touch with the dealership. Thank you so much for your help!
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Saturday, November 26th, 2016 AT 11:16 PM
Tiny
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Hi Ken, how do I make a donation? FYI, I am still waiting for update from the dealership.
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Sunday, November 27th, 2016 AT 9:29 AM
Tiny
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Hi Caradiodoc. Well, my Jeep is still at the dealership. Today they finished tracing the problem with the radio--the amplifier is blown and is on backorder for a month--tow truck company is paying for this repair. They also tried to perform the full load test but could not do so because my battery will not hold a charge--they are awaiting approval from the tow truck company to cover the cost of a new battery. So, I still don't know if there was damage to my alternator. Hopefully will know more tomorrow.
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Sunday, November 27th, 2016 AT 3:15 PM
Tiny
KEN L
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Sounds good, please let us know.
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Monday, November 28th, 2016 AT 8:34 AM
Tiny
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Caradiodoc, are you available? I have some numbers for you. The dealership mechanic replaced my battery and then hooked it up to their professional testing tool which is made specifically for Chrysler (not a voltmeter or multimeter). The test took 56 minutes, and it does not provide amperes. It gave a charging voltage at idle of 14.6V and loaded it was 14.55V. The ripple voltage was 23mV. And it also gave a statement something to the effect of "No problems" indicating no problems with the alternator/generator. I asked them to run an additional test with a voltmeter set to "AC Voltage" and hook it up to the battery and rev the engine up to about 1500rpm (based on what I read on the internet on how to test for diode damage with a voltmeter), and asked them to provide me with that reading. According to that website, the voltage should read 0 if no diode damage, and if it reads ANY voltage, it means there is a damaged diode. If the voltmeter reads 0, can we assume the alternator does not need replacement?
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Monday, November 28th, 2016 AT 2:33 PM
Tiny
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FYI, their testing tool is a big thing on wheels and has cables you hook up to the battery I guess, maybe also the alternator.
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Monday, November 28th, 2016 AT 3:02 PM
Tiny
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Another update, Caradiodoc! One of the technicians had an amp meter at home, ran home at lunch to get it. They hooked it up to my jeep, and the reading was 119 amps. My alternator size is 120 amps, so it sounds like the alternator was not damaged. The dome light still does not work (i.E. It does not come on when you open the driver's door); the dealership says that is tied to the stereo amplifier, and should work once the damaged amplifier is replaced (it is on backorder). They are going to note in the paperwork that they cannot check the speakers until the new amplifier is installed, and additional repairs to the speakers may be necessary if they don't function once the amplifier is installed. They said the door chimes work, the alarm works, the door locks work, the other lights work, the horn works, the panic button works. I will check some other things when I go to pick it up but all seems to be good now!

So, here is a list of currently known damages to my Jeep resulting from the reversed jumper cables:

Blown TIPM
Damaged battery
Damaged amplifier

The towing company has agreed to pay for all the above damages! Yay!

Nine days without a vehicle (towing company did not offer to pay for a car rental, nor did I push for one)

Thank you very much Caradiodoc for your help and expertise!
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Monday, November 28th, 2016 AT 4:31 PM
Tiny
KEN L
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Good to hear, please use 2CarPros anytime we are here to help.

Best, Ken
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Monday, November 28th, 2016 AT 4:50 PM
Tiny
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I absolutely will! Thank you so so much!
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Monday, November 28th, 2016 AT 5:55 PM
Tiny
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The speakers are fine. It is possible, but extremely rare, for an amp to damage a speaker, and to do that, it has to be turned on. It will never turn on with reverse polarity or with a blown fuse.

My limited research showed your vehicle came with either a 140-amp or 160-amp alternator, but even a 120-amp is huge compared to what we had even a few years earlier. I never heard of measuring AC voltage to test for a defective diode, and I'd have to experiment with that to see what to expect. Digital voltmeters are only designed to be accurate when measuring 60 cycle sine waves, which is house current. The AC ripple that all alternators develop is much faster than 60 cycles, even when the engine is idling, and is not a nice clean sine wave. That doesn't mean the meter won't read anything, but I don't think it should read "0". Some ripple voltage has to be expected, but it should be low, as in 0.23 volts. Most testers only give a relative indication between "low" and "high" because the actual value s not important. Regardless, the only way you can get 119 amps is to have a good 120-amp alternator. Given the range of production tolerances, I'd be happy with 110 amps if this was from a 140-amp alternator. As I mentioned previously, with one failed diode, the most you would get from a 120-amp alternator is 40 amps.

Without perusing a wiring diagram, it sounds like the amplifier gets a turn-on signal from the radio over the vehicle's data buss, and it has a constant 12 volt feed for its power source. I've never worked on an amp of that style, but I know the newer radios work the same way. The radios always have a similar constant 12 volt supply, and that is always tied into some other circuit that is always live. That could be the horn, the brake lights, on some cars, the cigarette lighter, but by far the most common is the interior lights. In the past, cars had one fuse labelled for the radio, and you just had to know the second radio fuse was labelled "interior lights". The rather obvious clue when that fuse was blown was the interior lights didn't work! I'm wondering why the amp is needed to make the lights work if it's just a blown fuse, but I'm not going to second-guess someone who appears to know what he is doing, especially since I've never worked on these circuits.

As I mentioned earlier, your battery was just about at the end of its life, as evidenced by the fact it would not start the engine after running the radio for just ten minutes. If the company is going to pay for a new battery, it sounds like they have your best interest at heart, as most companies do. Reversed jumper cables can not damage a good battery. The jumper cables would overheat and melt first. Remember, the battery needs to deliver often over 250 amps to crank an engine, and they can do that for quite a while. Two batteries, connected together incorrectly with jumper cables, will not pass 250 amps because the clamps just don't make a good enough connection. I would look at this as you're getting a battery the towing company shouldn't have to pay for, in exchange for the car rental it would have been nice if they had paid for.

Plus, ... You got to visit us and learn way more than you wanted to know! :)
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Monday, November 28th, 2016 AT 11:54 PM
Tiny
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Hi Caradiodoc! Thanks for getting back to me. My Jeep engine was off when I got the jump, but I don't remember if I turned off the radio before I turned off the engine (remember, I had my ignition key turned to accessory and was listening to the radio, then tried to start the jeep and it wouldn't start--I don't remember if, at that time, I turned off the radio before I turned the ignition key to off and waited for the tow truck). Would that have made any difference--i.E. Would it have damaged my speakers? I'm guessing not.

The interior lights stopped working after the jump (dome light, power window lever illuminators, climate control dial illuminators), and when I turn on my blinkers the rear ones work fine but the front ones do not--what happens instead is the fog lamps blink. The dealership said that the above issues are programming issues (they had to reprogram everything when they replaced the TIPM but cannot reprogram the amplifier until the replacement gets here and is installed). They said the interior light problems and the blinker problems should be resolved once the amplifier is installed and reprogrammed. Does that sound right?

I was surprised when they told me I only had a 120amp alternator. Regardless, it is putting out 119amps and as you said, even if I had a 140amp alternator, a value of 119amps would be acceptable.

I was happy the towing company paid for a new battery--that was generous of them and I appreciate their generosity. I hope they appreciate that I did not insist on a car rental for 9 days :)
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Tuesday, November 29th, 2016 AT 9:44 AM
Tiny
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Hmmm.I just did a quick search online and there are a host of posts about TIPM issues, including interior light issues and fog lamp/blinker issues. One post in particular reads as follows:

"2011 Jeep Grand cherokee fog lights flash when turning right blinker on:
This has been common after replacing the TIPM. The TIPM circuits for the turn signals and fog lamps have been revised. Once the TIPM has been replaced the wiring needs to be relocated for proper operation. You can see the information from Chrysler HERE. Please view the procedure and relocate the wiring for proper operation."

Well, I tried to click "HERE" but got an error message. So I called my Jeep dealer and told him what I read online. He will consult with the mechanic and will get back with me. I will let you know what they say.
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Tuesday, November 29th, 2016 AT 10:31 AM
Tiny
KEN L
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Please let us know happens so it will help others.

Best, Ken
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Tuesday, November 29th, 2016 AT 11:14 AM
Tiny
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Okay, the dealership confirmed that on the new TIPMs you have to switch the pins during installation because the wiring orientation for the blinkers and foglamps has changed (you have to reverse the pins--put the pin to the blinkers into the slot for the foglamp pin and vice versa). Sorry for the crude explanation but you tech/mech guys probably know what I am trying to say.
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Tuesday, November 29th, 2016 AT 3:07 PM
Tiny
KEN L
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Yep, thanks for the update so everything is working correctly now?
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Tuesday, November 29th, 2016 AT 3:13 PM
Tiny
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No, I have to make an appointment to get that issue with the blinkers resolved, so maybe early next week they can fix the issue. The amplifier is still on backorder, so I won't know anything more about the interior lights issue until they install the amplifier (because they said the two issues are related somehow)--could be days, could be weeks before that part is available for install. I will let you know as soon as I know--I hope it's soon--it's hard to see at night without the interior lights and boring to drive without music :)
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Tuesday, November 29th, 2016 AT 10:31 PM
Tiny
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Hey Caradiodoc. About your comment "I'm wondering why the amp is needed to make the lights work if it's just a blown fuse"; maybe they are correct in saying they cannot finish programming the TIPM until the amp is replaced, but that explanation just sounds weird. I have been searching the internet trying to figure it out, and the only thing I could find was reference to the IOD fuse (ignition off draw). The fuse is contained in a small white fuse box inside the TIPM, and is pulled out at the factory prior to shipping the vehicle to the dealership, in order to reduce draw on the battery during shipping/storage. The dealership then re-inserts it prior to sale. There is also mention of this in the 2011 Jeep Wrangler manual--if an owner plans to store their Jeep for a month they should first pull out this little fuse and keep it somewhere warm and dry while the vehicle is in storage. I just wonder if that fuse box was firmly inserted upon installation of my new TIPM. Some online posts state that it can be partially disengaged to the first dentent and the vehicle still start, but the radio or interior lights may not work. I have not looked under my hood since I got the Jeep back from the dealer, but am tempted to open the TIPM cover and see if that little white fuse box is firmly seated.
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Wednesday, November 30th, 2016 AT 4:32 PM
Tiny
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IOD fuses have been around since the early '90s. Before that, we had large wires near the battery with bullet connectors that allowed them to be unplugged. You're right about their purpose. Unneeded accessories that are run by computers that have memory circuits that constantly draw standby current are disabled, but certain safety systems, like power mirrors, will still work only while the engine is running. They get powered up by the alternator and allow the delivery truck driver to operate things needed to do his job.

The TIPM is a computer module incorporated into the under-hood fuse box, and in my opinion, adds an unnecessary level of complexity where it is not needed. I left the dealership before those showed up, so I never worked with them there. I have worked on a few at my buddy's body shop. What I DO know about them I learned from the former head of Chrysler training for all of Wisconsin. She used to use my classroom as one of her three remote training sites, and I was allowed to sit in on those classes. (She was a REAL good instructor, and is where I learned some of my wondrous teaching skills).

Anyhow, getting back to the point, Chrysler was the first manufacturer to use a computer to run an engine, back in the mid '70s. There were only a few variations and the systems were real basic, compared to what we have today. When GM started using computers, there were quite a few variations, depending on the engine, year, and optional equipment. Chrysler had a different computer part number specific to each application. That made it impractical for a dealer's parts department to stock every one. Instead, they had to order them as they were needed. Fortunately their failure rate was extremely low. GM went a different route that made more sense. They only had a few computers that covered almost all applications, then they plugged in the "PROM", (programmable read-only memory), specific to the application, to give the computer its personality, so to speak. They had a very high computer failure rate in the late '80s to early 90s, but you could use almost any replacement then just transfer the PROM to it. No one had to stock a big bunch of different computers.

That has been taken to a new level now with downloading software into a new computer. GM, in my opinion, is the innovator at coming up with stuff that benefits them at the expense of their customers, and this was one of them. Unfortunately, everyone else seems to copy new ideas within a few years, and this is where your new TIPM is finally related to my wondrous story. The new TIPM will work on many years, engines, and models with a variety of optional equipment. The software has to be downloaded specific to the vehicle, and on some applications that can only be done once. GM did that so you can't buy a used computer from a salvage yard. You have to buy a new one from their dealers, and you have to pay them to install the software. That is one of their "customer-unfriendly" business practices.

I don't know if that one attempt applies to your new TIPM, but if it does, during the download process, the computer goes out and looks at the vehicle's circuitry and tries to talk with the other computers. If, for example, it doesn't find an Anti-Lock Brake Computer, it will know that option isn't there, and it won't include software for it in the download. To do so would cause it to set diagnostic fault codes later when it can't find things during the self-tests it runs. The point is, you need to have everything installed and connected, so the computer can detect everything and ask for the necessary software to be included in the download. That could be why they don't want to get the radio or interior lights working until the amp is installed. I should mention too, that starting with a few 2004 models, the industry changed over to the current "CAN-BUSS" computer system that standardizes a lot of stuff, and it adds a huge amount of complexity to the electrical system. What used to be a simple, reliable door switch, head light switch, cruise control switch, etc, are now a tiny computer modules. The manufacturers tells us that makes diagnosis much easier because we can read fault codes that tell us where to start looking, but those little computer-infested parts CAUSE more problems than they solve. Also, people like me can no longer buy the same testers the dealers have to buy, so I, as a mechanic and electrical expert, have to take my car to the dealer for many repairs that I should be able to do myself. That is the main reason I have resisted buying a newer car.
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Wednesday, November 30th, 2016 AT 7:12 PM

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