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No start after sudden stop at idle

Tiny
CCLAUB
  • MEMBER
  • 1983 BUICK ESTATE WAGON
  • 5.0L
  • V8
  • 2WD
  • AUTOMATIC
  • 180,000 MILES
Engine has:
Fuel.
Spark.
Was running and then complete stop.
Inidcations:
Bad ignition control module.
Bad distributor pickup.
Bad ECM.
Bad relays, solenoids.
Bad wiring, connector.

Code 41, car has carburetor 307 Oldsmobile "y" engine.
Car seems to have erratic spark according to visual tester.
Out of ideas.
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Monday, July 9th, 2018 AT 1:46 PM

9 Replies

Tiny
STEVE W.
  • MECHANIC
  • 13,454 POSTS
Pull the distributor cap and check the rotation. Have seen the drive gear and driven gear wear and cause the distributor to become erratic. What does the timing look like? A complete stop is not good as it could be something like a jumped timing chain. Code 41 - bad mem-cal (aka the rom chip) Different ECM should have negated that though. Might run a compression test just to be sure the rest of the engine is still operating.
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Monday, July 9th, 2018 AT 2:08 PM
Tiny
CCLAUB
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  • 5 POSTS
Thanks Steve,
I checked the drive gear when I changed the distributor pickup. ECC went bad, I could not get a code 12. Replaced ECM and ordered new PROM chip. Connected the ECM and now have code 12, great. Codes then were 51, Bad PROM, which makes absolute sense because I had not installed PROM chip.
Installed PROM chip and now have code 12. Crank engine and recheck codes to find 12 and now 41, which I believe is "No signal to ECM." I checked and replaced wiring harness' and my Ignition control module, which is exactly what happens when the ICM blew in the past.
I hope I gave you a better picture in chronological order.
Thanks,
Chris
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Monday, July 9th, 2018 AT 2:23 PM
Tiny
STEVE W.
  • MECHANIC
  • 13,454 POSTS
I have four different code 41 definitions. The no signal is #2 so we can use it. For that I would check to see if the harness is loose, I have seen a few where the pins were a very loose fit and you would get an intermittent signal, if you got one at all.
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Thursday, July 12th, 2018 AT 1:34 PM
Tiny
CCLAUB
  • MEMBER
  • 5 POSTS
Hi Steve,

I actually checked the harness between the distributor's control module and the ECM and wire connector. Do you have any idea about any relays that could be causing this? I am confused as the timing seems to be erratic. I confirmed this visually with a Lisle spark plug wire tool. Do you know of any way to know what range of measurement each terminal on the ECM should be? Hope I phrased that correctly.
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Thursday, July 12th, 2018 AT 5:07 PM
Tiny
STEVE W.
  • MECHANIC
  • 13,454 POSTS
Erratic timing could be from chain slop. Check that by pulling the cap. Bring it to TDC, mark it. Then turn the engine backwards until you see the rotor move. Check how many degrees it moved. Ideally it would be zero but three to four degrees is okay.
Unless you have a failing coil, that could give you intermittent spark, as could a bad rotor button.
As for looking at the ECM there are no real measurement for resistance just the battery and grounds. If you have access to an old TECH 1 or an OTC 1000 you can get some live data other than just codes. Check that you have a good block ground as well.
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Thursday, July 12th, 2018 AT 8:14 PM
Tiny
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  • MEMBER
  • 5 POSTS
I noticed that the main block ground strap was unattached. It was attached, until recently, due to the yellow brass is bright where the bolt head was. The strap end is a quite small diameter and I tried attaching to several different areas on the engine. Do you know where I can get the information as to the original bolt hole would be located?
Thanks,
Chris
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Thursday, July 12th, 2018 AT 8:48 PM
Tiny
STEVE W.
  • MECHANIC
  • 13,454 POSTS
As long as it is a clean spot and the strap fits any hole will work. They usually went from the firewall to the back of the cylinder head or near that.
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Friday, July 13th, 2018 AT 12:01 PM
Tiny
CCLAUB
  • MEMBER
  • 5 POSTS
Hello Steve,

About three days ago I wrote a response to you which took about thirty minutes. I sent it and an error message came up and I lost the whole thing. I am going to condense it this time and give a "Readers Digest" version.
I tried the ground with a new copper wire and had my wife crank the car over. No go. I cannot believe this and you may not either. I have a 1995 Roadmaster Wagon with no problems and drove out a grocery store twenty minutes away. I have literally rebuilt every component on a 1994, 1996, and now my 1995 Roadmaster's. I came out and the car just cranked with no start fault. I assumed fuel pump, ignition coil or ICM. I am several days into it and cannot believe for the first time in my life I have two cars with a no-start condition and I have exchanged all parts that should be faulty. The 1995 Roadmaster is a off-year and today spent almost $200.00 purchasing a Actron CP9690 Trilingual OBD I/OBD II Elite Autoscanner Pro Kit which is one of the few that has all attaching connectors for odd years between OBD! And OBDII. I have no way to read the 1995's codes, hence the purchase. I purchased the ICM, Coil and checked the fuel pump.
I cannot believe this and do not think you have any ideas left. Please let me know if anything enters your mind and I will keep you informed as to the 1995 RMW as soon as the scanner comes in. Hopefully since this scanner provides detailed information on OBD1, supposedly, I can get more information data on the 1983.
As always thanks for your help!
Chris
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Saturday, July 14th, 2018 AT 11:34 PM
Tiny
STEVE W.
  • MECHANIC
  • 13,454 POSTS
Sorry for the error message. Those hit me now and again. My SOP on any replies that take a while is to select and copy the entire thing. That way if it hits a hiccup, I still have it.

It sounds like you are doing the right testing. On a crank no start I run through a set process to find what is missing from the equation. On most I will use a quick shot of starting fluid. If it fires and tries to run I know I at least have ignition and some compression and will start looking at fuel. If I get nothing then I start with ignition. Those are the two most common failures. I also try to test as much as possible before really taking anything out/apart.
On GM's I suspect crank sensors, fuel pumps, ignition modules, bad EGR, and corroded connectors.
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Sunday, July 15th, 2018 AT 11:55 AM

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