Intermittent starting

Tiny
ERIC BROWN
  • MEMBER
  • 2013 DODGE DART
  • 2.0L
  • 4 CYL
  • 2WD
  • AUTOMATIC
  • 120,000 MILES
Car sometimes doesn’t start. When it doesn’t it doesn’t turnover at all but all accessories work. You do hear a click but does not turn over. Battery is new less than year ago and volts check good. Checked all fuses specifically F3 and F11 and they look good with no evidence of burn through or arcing that may be intermittent. Swapped some start relays and didn’t fix. I have applied power directly to the output side of the T20 ECM start relay and have started it that way but doesn’t always start bypassing the relays. Does this mean it’s more than likely the starter? Being that I’m going directly from the battery 12 v to the starter and not only does it not start it doesn’t turnover. I would think putting juice to it directly should at least turn it over?

I’ve also swapped other relays into the T20 ECM starter position, T14 BCM Start and the T09 Run start relays on which none of them made a difference. Jump starting doesn’t help either just for reference. Nothing really works except just trying to start with the key. Sometimes 15-20 times or let it sit for an hour or two and then it might start up. Again I have started it several timees with direct power from the car battery to output side of the T20 ECM start relay. But just like turning the key it just clicks and then eventually you do it and it starts so I think it’s same scenario as the key as whatever is not working just intermittently decides to work. But with that said like mentioned earlier if I put power directly to the starter it still doesn’t turnover or anything it just either clicks or starts fully. I’m pretty confident it the stater but it’s also the most expensive and time consuming fix. Just looking for second opinion. I mean there’s an outside chance that it’s ignition switch or related but the car doesn’t start with the remote start either. And I suppose a remote possibility could be shift neutral switch or something too. Anyway looking for second opinion. Thoughts?

PS - Oh and I almost forgot about a month ago or so I cleaned all the frame grounds from battery and engine as they did have decent corrosion and car ran without issue for about 3-4 weeks. So I thought I had it licked but then it just started back up again. So I did initially look at the grounds for what it is worth.
Thursday, December 19th, 2024 AT 10:57 AM

5 Replies

Tiny
MECHTRIX
  • MECHANIC
  • 66 POSTS
Tap the side of the starter to vibrate it. See if it starts then. If it does it's the brushes inside.
They make rebuild kits for them but its sometime better to just get a new one these days if the price is right. Best wishes and happy holidays.
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Thursday, December 19th, 2024 AT 12:22 PM
Tiny
ERIC BROWN
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I don’t typically have access to the starter when it dies. I would have done that if I’d did have access in fact I was doing that by tapping the relays before I swapped them to see if they were sticking.

I guess my question back to you from the data I provided would you concur that it’s more than likely the starter? I understand you can’t say for 100% certainty by diagnosing through a forum and if I replace the starter and it doesn’t fix it you don’t want folks coming back to you saying you said it was this or that. But from the data I provided would you agree that replacing the starter would be a logical next step? I can’t think of any other tests I can easily do or a maybe an avenue that I haven’t ventured down. Final thoughts?

I believe my next step is replacing the starter regardless of your response but I’m just making sure that there’s not something I’m missing here and be like have yo7 tried this or maybe you could try this or that before you throw a starter at it. Anyway I appreciate any insight.
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Thursday, December 19th, 2024 AT 1:00 PM
Tiny
MECHTRIX
  • MECHANIC
  • 66 POSTS
Yep sounds pretty typical. For the beginnings of a bad starter.
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Thursday, December 19th, 2024 AT 1:36 PM
Tiny
MECHTRIX
  • MECHANIC
  • 66 POSTS
Look for a bad cable. Loose bolts holding the starter to the eng. Loose or bad ground cable from the batery to the body and or engine.. And try tapping the starter if you can get to it and if you don't find anything there. Than yep" might be time for a new starter. Hope this helps
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Thursday, December 19th, 2024 AT 1:41 PM
Tiny
CARADIODOC
  • MECHANIC
  • 33,916 POSTS
Hi guys. I think you're on the right path, but to replace the starter, you gotta get to it. As long as you have to do that, I like to know with more certainty, so I would pursue attaching a clip lead, (small jumper wire), that can be run to a test light, then run the wire under the back of the hood and clip the light under the right wiper arm so you can see it. Watch out for grounded wires as they won't be fused, but typical clip leads are small enough to burn up without much excitement.

To start this test, my preference is to connect the test light to the switched side of the solenoid. That's either blue arrow in the photo. The test light will turn on only during cranking. If it turns on full brightness but the starter motor doesn't run, it has worn brushes, but that would be the less common cause.

By the way, you mentioned you hear a click when the starter is dead. It's important to differentiate the very light click from the starter relay, as opposed to a rather loud, single clunk from the starter. If all you hear is the light relay click, you'll need to look in the solenoid / starter relay circuit. I can post diagrams for you guys if it comes to that. You may not hear the relay click when you're inside the car. The clunk from the starter solenoid can be heard from a long way off.

Assuming the test light does not light up during the cranking attempt, move the jumper wire to the top solenoid terminal, (red arrow). That one is hot all the time so don't let anything touch ground. Expect it to dim a little during cranking, but if it goes out completely, along with the failure to crank, one of the cables has a corroded connection. That was common on older Fords, and it occurred under the insulation where you couldn't easily see it, at the end attached to that terminal. A bad connection at a battery cable clamp isn't likely as you said everything else keeps working.

If you find the 12 volts at the red arrow never goes away, but it fails to show up at the blue arrows during cranking, the contacts are burned inside the solenoid. Older Chrysler models as far back as the late 1980s, and Toyotas, used a neat little Nippendenso starter. Failure of those contacts was extremely common, but they were also rather easy to replace, and cost less than $6.00 for the pair. I'm not aware of such a history with this newer design, and this design, while pretty common, doesn't lend itself to an easy repair. Just replace the starter as MECHTRIX suggested.

These tests work best with the older, inexpensive test light with a small incandescent bulb inside. You'll probably want to disconnect it when it isn't needed so it doesn't run the battery down over a few days, and doesn't become a distraction. The newer test lights with built-in voltmeters, or a digital voltmeter, will work too, but they're a lot harder to read. If you don't have these tools, Harbor Freight Tools has a pack of small jumper wires for less than $4.00, a test light for about the same, and a perfectly fine digital meter for $7.00. Walmart and hardware stores have the test lights and meters too.

Polarity doesn't matter with standard test lights, so you can attach the ground clip to the starter solenoid, then use a jumper wire from the test light's probe, to ground. That way nothing can short out if you accidentally bump the probe to ground.

I'll be around about this time each day in case you guys needs more of my wondrous wisdom.
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Thursday, December 19th, 2024 AT 4:11 PM

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