Transmission will not shift

Tiny
DCTAZ1
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  • 2002 CHRYSLER PT CRUISER
  • 4 CYL
  • 2WD
  • AUTOMATIC
  • 160,000 MILES
When first starting the car in any weather it will not move into forward gears. Reverse works fine but you have to Rev the engine to get first gear to "catch" and it does this frequently until you drive it for at least five miles then it is fine for the remainder of the day.
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Sunday, March 10th, 2019 AT 11:09 AM (Merged)
Tiny
CARADIODOC
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If I didn't mention it already, other than on diesels, you'll never solve a running problem on a Chrysler product by replacing the fuel filter on the frame rail. I don't know if that applies to the newer ones with the filter in the tank, but I suspect they did that, in part, because replacement really isn't necessary.

There's two things that can be done to try to find this problem. One is to attach a fuel pressure gauge and clip it to the radio antenna so you can watch the pressure when the problem occurs. I did that on my '88 Grand Caravan for a year and a half when chasing a real intermittent problem. I've never done this on a vehicle with the pressure regulator inside the gas tank, so I don't know what they will do, but with the regulator on the fuel rail on the engine, the pressure goes up during acceleration when intake vacuum goes down. That's to keep the difference in the two forces acting on the fuel at the injector tips equal at all times, and is why there's a vacuum hose attached to the regulator.

The second thing requires a scanner with record capabilities. You press the "record" button when the problem occurs. A few seconds of data is recorded that can be played back slowly later while watching the sensor readings the computer acts on, like throttle position sensor and coolant temperature sensor, and the results of those actions, like oxygen sensor readings. Simple fault code readers won't be able to do that. You'll likely have to find a mechanic with a scanner.
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Sunday, March 10th, 2019 AT 11:09 AM (Merged)
Tiny
CARADIODOC
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The first suspect is low fluid level due to a leak. Forcing the car to move by raising engine speed will seriously overheat and destroy the slipping clutch plates. That can turn a minor problem into a very expensive transmission rebuild. Slipping even once like that can do more wear to those clutch packs in a few seconds than normally takes places in over 100,000 of normal driving.
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Sunday, March 10th, 2019 AT 11:09 AM (Merged)
Tiny
JDBKNIFE
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That's a good idea Car. As I said, we live a LONG way from anything, but I'll do some calling and see if the nearest Autozone or something has a reader with record feature and would be willing to help.

SUREly that would find the problem if it's something that's so intermittent the factory fault system misses it.

Although, I don't see how the factory fault systems isn't getting it given that the surge it has now is a slow, drawn out up and down surge at part throttle.

Oh, and it doesn't have a fuel filter on the frame rail that I can find. So I suspect the strainer system in the slosh tank on the fuel pump is what they call a filter. ; )

I know I'm loosing patients. Other than having to hear it from my wife for not getting it fixed before it left her stranded, I wish the dang thing would just go on and break so I could find it. LOL
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Sunday, March 10th, 2019 AT 11:09 AM (Merged)
Tiny
CARADIODOC
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Actually, the fault detection system is real effective and is much easier to work with than on some other brands. The first part of it has to do with sensor voltages going out of range. For example, the throttle position sensor is fed with 5.0 volts and ground. Due to mechanical stops, the signal voltage will always be between 0.5 and 4.5 volts. The only way it can go to 0.0 volts or 5.0 volts is if there's a break in a wire, connection, or inside the sensor, and that's what triggers the fault code. If the broken connection is intermittent, the Engine Computer will detect a break that lasts for just a few milliseconds, while all scanners and especially all digital voltmeters respond much too slowly to show those.

The clinker here is when a sensor sends a wrong signal voltage but it's within the acceptable range. That isn't likely to happen to a throttle position sensor because it's a simple mechanical device, but a MAP sensor has a lot of circuitry inside it so it is very possible for it to send, ... Lets say 2.2 volts, which is within the acceptable range of 0.5 to 4.5 volts, when it is supposed to be 2.4 volts. That 0.2 volt error will result in a major miscalculation on the required amount of fuel, but it won't set a code because 2.2 volts is an acceptable value.

The next part of fault detection involves operating conditions that would be almost impossible to determine yourself by watching the readings on the scanner. A perfect example would be, "running too lean too long". In that case the oxygen sensor is obviously working as it is supposed to, but the exhaust gas is not switching between rich and lean fast enough. Normal is about twice per second, but you may see it stay in one state for much longer on a scanner. You can't tell exactly when this type of code will be set. One instance typically won't do it. The computer decides when the exhaust gas is staying in one state too much, and that can take hours or days.

The third part of fault detection was added with all '96 and newer vehicles. Now misfires can be detected by the slowing of the rotational speed of the crankshaft, (which is what we feel when we feel that misfire). The computer knows which cylinder is responsible, but it takes a certain number of misfires within a given amount of time to set a code. Along with this, the fuel supply system is monitored for leaks in the vapor recovery system. This is why the Check Engine light will turn on and a code will be set if you leave the gas cap loose.

The nice thing with Chrysler's system is when the Check Engine light turns on, there WILL be a fault code. Some cars, GMs in particular, use what they call "pending codes". Those relate to things the computer is watching in preparation for setting a code, but the problem isn't quite bad enough yet. Sometimes those pending codes can give you an idea of where to look, if you can read them, but often there is no code, ... Just the phantom Check Engine light that turns off before you get to the shop, and you have no idea why it came on.

Don't know if that will help or not, but it might explain why there is no code being set. The fuel supply system is not monitored as far as pressure is concerned, so you won't get a code related to that, but you could get a code related to the RESULT of low or high pressure. Those would be running too lean or too rich.
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Sunday, March 10th, 2019 AT 11:09 AM (Merged)
Tiny
JDBKNIFE
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Yep, GREAT explanation of VERY confusing systems for an ol' shade tree mechanic to get, Car Doc.

Doc, I FINALLY got it on a diagnosis machine. He did all the standing checks, used his little tablet to play with the idle, check ALL the systems and told me what I already suspect. I had unhooked the battery the AC need servicing and there were NO CODES. LOL

So, he and his computer took a test drive. Again, NO engine codes. The way it was acting made him suspect it's a transmission problem. So he stopped and reset it to quick learn and drove it again recording the data points. The ONLY code he got at all for ANYthing that seemed out of place was that it SAYS that the overdrive clutch is engaged all the time? What?

Anyway, he said that all he could think of was that MAYbe the overdrive clutches have stuck together from carbon build up or something. Kind of like the clutch packs in Ford rear ends tend to do and cause that infamous clunk going around corners. So, he sent me up the road to a friend who has 45 years experience in transmission repair.

By the way, the mechanic spent an hour an a half tinkering with the little car and didn't charge me a DIME. And I TRIED to get him to let me pay him for his time. He said, "Nope, I don't charge if I can't fix it." Cool to find principled mechanics these days. ; )

ANYway, I went up to the transmission shop and the owner took her for a drive. He came back and said, "Their ain't SHITE wrong with that transmission."

He's kind of a surly ol' boy and shite ain't the exact word he used, but you get the point. LOL

Anyway, he said I've seen this with a LOT of different cars and it's the catalytic converter. WHICH, I've gotta say is something I've suspected from the start. He didn't even bother hooking it up to his computer. He said flat out, replace the converter and it will run like a Deer. As in John Deer of course. Did I mention I'm in a rural area?

At any rate, I asked if it wasn't trowing a code because the O2 sensor was working fine and it was just a software conflict between the actual air flow and the computed air flow that's causing all these symptoms, to which he said, "Yep, I've seen it a bunch." Then he repeated, "Replace the converter and it'll run like a Deer."

A question for you Car Doc. Does that make sense to you? As I said, I've suspected the converter from the beginning, but this computer stuff is WAY above my pay grade. I didn't and STILL DON'T have a clue how all this computer stuff interacts and what symptoms can be induced by the computer module because of faulty readings.

What say you Doc? I hate to pay 300 bucks for a converter and end up with a trashed transmission to deal with anyway. Ya know?

And thanks again for hanging with me on this. I'm sure you've got better things to do, so I really do appreciate your feedback!
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Sunday, March 10th, 2019 AT 11:09 AM (Merged)
Tiny
CARADIODOC
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I can't argue with any expert on driveability issues because that's not one of my specialty areas, but I can share how the system is supposed to work. The Engine Computer varies the fuel / air mixture from too rich to too lean about twice per second. During the lean times, the extra unburned oxygen gets stored in the catalyst. During the rich times, the unburned fuel vapors mix with the oxygen and burn off resulting in basically carbon dioxide and water vapor as the exhaust. When the catalytic converter is working properly, the oxygen sensor after it will detect a slightly lean condition for a fairly long time, as in a minute or more, then a slightly rich condition for a long time. The computer watches how long it takes for that switching rate to occur. The "downstream" O2 sensor switches very slowly and the "upstream" one switches very quickly. That's how the computer knows the converter is doing its job.

Based on the voltage readings from the upstream O2 sensor, the computer adjusts the mixture so the average is a perfect 14.7 / 1. That is the only oxygen sensor involved in fuel metering. Even when it has a bad enough problem that it doesn't develop the proper signal voltage, it has very little effect on engine performance. It affects emissions and can affect fuel mileage, but usually the engine will run fine. The rear sensor has no affect on engine performance at all, and no affect on fuel metering calculations. Its only function is to monitor the efficiency of the catalytic converter.

Two things can happen to the converter. It can become plugged, usually from overheating caused by some other defect that resulted in too much raw fuel going into the exhaust system, or the catalyst stops working by becoming coated with a contaminant so it can't store oxygen. You can tell the severity of a diagnostic fault code by how the Check Engine light acts, and the most severe is when it's flashing. That means too much raw fuel is going into the exhaust and will overheat and melt the catalyst. Typically it turns into a big rock that is not porous enough for the exhaust gas to pass through freely. That usually results in easy starting, but then very low power, almost non-existent acceleration, and an unusual hiss from the tail pipe instead of the normal "putt-putt" sound. The engine often idles fine, and if you can drive the car, the engine overheats easily. This type of problem is not intermittent. The test for it involves drilling a small hole in the exhaust pipe, then inserting a pressure gauge to measure the back pressure. A little is normal. I don't know what is considered excessive, but it seems to me I heard once that two pounds is too much.

When the catalyst stops working, the exhaust can still flow freely through it so there is usually no running problem. Any stumbles or hesitations are likely due to the computer causing changes to the fuel metering calculations in an attempt to clean up the emissions. As the efficiency of the converter goes down, it has less affect on the composition of the exhaust gas so what comes out starts to resemble what went in. When no change at all takes place in the exhaust gas within the converter, what goes in and what comes out will be exactly the same, so the downstream oxygen sensor will switch between rich and lean at exactly the same rate as the upstream sensor. It takes some time for the downstream sensor to go from switching once per minute or so to switching twice per second like the upstream sensor. There is a magic number programmed in that must be met to set the fault code for "catalytic converter efficiency". It doesn't have to reach the same twice per second of the upstream sensor. If I had to guess, I'd suggest the code might be set when the downstream sensor starts switching at maybe once every five seconds for a brief spurt, or perhaps once every ten seconds steadily. Those are just estimates to illustrate how the computer determines when to set a code.

There's a very high percentage of fault codes that relate solely to things that could increase emissions while having no negative effect on engine performance. To affect performance, the converter would have to be plugged. I'm not convinced the symptoms you described would be caused by the converter, but I certainly won't argue against it. With such an expensive part, I'd want to see some evidence on a scanner to support that argument before I spent that much money.
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Sunday, March 10th, 2019 AT 11:09 AM (Merged)
Tiny
JDBKNIFE
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Yeah, I was afraid you'd say that Doc. I've told my wife from the beginning that I thought it was an air in or air out problem. As in intake leak or plugged converter problem. So the ol' boy's proclamation about the converter fitted right in with what I wanted to believe. And while your description, "That usually results in easy starting, but then very low power, almost non-existent acceleration, and an unusual hiss from the tail pipe instead of the normal "putt-putt" sound. The engine often idles fine, and if you can drive the car, the engine overheats easily." Fits what's going on almost exactly, I have NOT notice a change in exhaust note OR any overheating yet.

Of course, the fuel mileage has also gone down by at least a couple miles per gallon. So it IS running rich. I don't know about the Chrysler's systems, but Fords would feed rich when the engine got hot to cool them down. Had a little V6 Ranger that the impeller had come completely off the water pump and I didn't know it for a WEEK! LOL

But if they work the same, it could be running hotter and the computer is running it rich trying to make up for it, I guess?

At any rate, where does that leave me? The ONLY thing out of the 1 1/2 hour scan fest that the ASE mechanic found was the code saying the overdrive clutch is engaged all the time. He says the engine is perfect and the only thing he found was the overdrive clutch.

But I've gotta say, I have built and rebuilt many automatic transmissions over the years. It's all I've run in my hotrods. I learned a long time ago how to tell excessive wear on transmission parts by the smell of the fluid. I know, I know, sounds crazy, but I have yet to miss catching a problem just by sniffing the oil. The oil smells fine. Not even a hint of burnt fluid smell and It's clean as the day it went in. Almost suspiciously so.

And I swear brother, it just flat doesn't feel like transmission slip. If it IS the overdrive clutch causing it, it's causing the computer to go apoplectic, not the transmission it's self. Oh man. I'm back to, "can you see if I'm bleeding from the ears, " again. LOL

Let me ask ya. In full size Fords, there is that problem with the clutches sticking together in the rear ends. So much so that Ford came out with a treatment for it. I think it's called Friction Ease if I remember right. What do you suppose would happen if it actually were the overdrive clutch pack stuck together and I put a can of that in the transmission? Wonder if it would be safe for a transmission? OR do you know of anything else that's safe that would remove the carbon buildup I could try?

Your right about the expense of a converter as a first resort. I jumped the gun on the fuel pump and now I have a spare. Oh, well, maybe I'll build a coy pond with an expensive circulating pump. LOL

A 10 buck can of conditioner would be a LOT cheaper and easier fix than cutting out and replacing the old convert. AND get my wife off my back a LOT quicker. LOL
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Sunday, March 10th, 2019 AT 11:09 AM (Merged)
Tiny
TXBASSHOUND
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  • 2002 CHRYSLER PT CRUISER
  • 4 CYL
  • FWD
  • AUTOMATIC
  • 140,000 MILES
Intermittently won't shift from 2nd to 3rd. Odometer code reads P0700. Is this a sensor code or an actual problem? How can you tell if it is an actual tranny problem of just a sensor?
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Sunday, March 10th, 2019 AT 11:09 AM (Merged)
Tiny
MASTERTECHTIM
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Its most likely a shift solenoid but it really needs to be tested by a transmission shop.
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Sunday, March 10th, 2019 AT 11:09 AM (Merged)
Tiny
JDBKNIFE
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By the way Doc, my wife reminded me of something. A couple months ago, she hit an 11 point white tail buck hard enough to do 3500 bucks in damage. MAN that was some expensive burger. LOL

But the point is, do you think that the impact might have damaged the catalytic converter. I know those things are suppose to be pretty bullet proof, but it's just a thought?
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Sunday, March 10th, 2019 AT 11:09 AM (Merged)
Tiny
CARADIODOC
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I don't believe stuck clutch plates are the issue. To get a fault code related to the clutch pack staying applied means it was set by the pressure sensor for that clutch pack or hydraulic circuit. Clutch plates physically burned and welded together is a mechanical thing that is not monitored, so that wouldn't set a code.

A stuck clutch pack would cause other symptoms too. If you look at the truth table in the service manual, it will list each clutch pack and in which gear(s) it is applied. I don't know which ones are applied when, but as an example, lets say the under-drive clutch is applied in second and third gears but not in fourth gear. If that clutch pack was sticking, the transmission may go into second gear when the hydraulics are telling it to go into fourth gear. If yours is going into all gears properly, I would suspect a different type of problem.

There could be a problem with a sticking pressure switch telling the computer there's hydraulic pressure applying the clutch pack when there should be no pressure. Mechanically the transmission is fine, but electrically it's giving incorrect information to the computer. There could also be a problem with the hydraulic circuits. If the pressure is bleeding off too slowly, a clutch pack may appear to be applied for a fraction of a second too long and will overlap the application of another clutch pack. Excessive wear could take place during that fraction of a second when two clutch packs are fighting each other by trying to rotate at different speeds.

I'm not a transmission specialist. I can only go by what I learned at some Chrysler schools in the '90s, but this might give you some ideas of what to look for. I've heard some people say they've had good luck with "Sea Foam" products, but I've never used it, or anything else in a transmission for that matter.
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Sunday, March 10th, 2019 AT 11:09 AM (Merged)
Tiny
JDBKNIFE
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Yep, IF I'm understanding your point Doc, that's a big help. It kind of confirms what I was thinking. If it IS a problem being caused by the transmission, my first thought was the valve body, as us old school 724 Mopar guys call 'um. LOL

I even said that to the mechanic when he came back and told me the OD clutch was engaged all the time. I even went so far as to look up some info on rebuilding the solenoid packs in the thing once I discovered it had electric solenoids in the modulator. A faulty signal from that just makes more sense than a stuck clutch pack since the thing DOES shift normally as long as it's not under heavy acceleration.

The info I found on rebuilding the thing also said that one thing that could happen is metal particles could build up around the valves because of the magnetism of the solenoid coils. AND that could cause them to stick. So that sounds like a possibility.

Thanks. That gives me something quick, easy and inexpensive to try. I think I'll try a flush and then changing the fluid and a conditioner in the transmission before I do anything else. It can't hurt the situation and it might just cure it.

I may, if I can find the correct info and actually manage to reach the dang thing, even drag our my meter and test the connectors to make sure there isn't a continuity fault with that solenoid. Not sure exactly how to do that, but I'll try.

I AM still confused on how it can cause what FEELS like the part throttle loss of power and surging symptom it has, but then computer control modules are alchemy to me anyway. So I guess I'll just have to accept my intellectual limits for the time being. LOL
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Sunday, March 10th, 2019 AT 11:09 AM (Merged)
Tiny
JDBKNIFE
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Ok, Doc. I found the Sea Foam brand transmission conditioner and used it. To be honest, I THINK I could feel a difference in the smoothness of the transmission's operation, but only marginally so. AND the performance issues are UN changed. GRRRRR!

After nearly a month of this, I am getting VERY aggravated. I'm about to go postal on the wife's little car. I'll post a youtube vid so you to see the holes if I do. LOL

Seriously, the way I see it, I'm down to two options. The solenoid OR the catalytic converter. And the price for replacing the modulator and the converter is just about the same. So that's a push. To be honest and looking at the work involved, the catalytic converter will probably be the easiest thing to get at for me.

SO, I just have to make a choice as to which one would likely solve this. Is the overdrive REALLY engaged all the time or is that some fault that's been going on for a long time that's unrelated to the performance issue and the transmission expert's proclamation that it's a cat converter is correct?

OR, is it an overdrive fault coming from the solenoid causing apoplexy in the computer control module's software, which is causing the performance issues due to conflicting inputs? THAT is something I don't even know if it can cause these symptoms. And as of yet, have not been able to find out.

Not to mention that if it really IS the OD clutch pack fried and I replace the solenoid I've wasted that time and money and I will STILL be left replacing the transmission. GRRRR!

I'm so confused. LOL

At this point, unless you have another opinion, I'm leaning toward replacing the cat converter since it can't hurt and it will likely improve the performance and fuel economy of a car with this many miles on it. And it will pretty much put to bed the disagreement between the mechanic that scanned it and the transmission expert he sent me to.

What say you, Doc?
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Sunday, March 10th, 2019 AT 11:09 AM (Merged)
Tiny
CARADIODOC
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At this point I can't add anything of value except to say the computer will detect an open circuit to a solenoid. The only time you'd need to do a continuity check is when you get a fault code that indicates a circuit needs further diagnosis.

Remember too that throttle position and road speed are what determines the transmission's shift points. If the converter is plugged, you'll have to push further on the accelerator pedal, and that will change how the shifts feel and when they occur.
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Sunday, March 10th, 2019 AT 11:09 AM (Merged)
Tiny
MRCURIOUS
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When car in drive cannot get the transmission to change gear.
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Sunday, March 10th, 2019 AT 11:09 AM (Merged)
Tiny
JDBKNIFE
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Yeah, and that too is even more confusing Doc. This thing only shifts when you let OFF of the throttle. LOL

I think you are right. If there really was a problem with the transmission, it wouldn't shift at part throttle any better than it does at full throttle OR as you say, you'd have to over pressure it with the throttle to overcome low valve pressure to get it to shift.

I really appreciate your input. I'm gonna order a cat converter and change that. If that doesn't work.I'm SHOOTIN' the dang thing.

I'll let ya know which it is. ; )

Thanks!
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Sunday, March 10th, 2019 AT 11:09 AM (Merged)
Tiny
CARADIODOC
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That should be second gear it is stuck in, and the check engine light should be on. Second gear is "limp mode" that allows you to drive slowly to a repair shop without needing a tow truck. Your mechanic will start by reading and recording the diagnostic fault codes.
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Sunday, March 10th, 2019 AT 11:09 AM (Merged)
Tiny
JDBKNIFE
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Well, Doc. You can mark this one resolved. And it turns out that, as you said, it really is hard to argue with 40 years experience. LOL

The ol' back woods transmission mechanic was right. It was the catalytic converter. How 'bout that. I was absolutely convinced I was wasting time and money when I crawled under it today.

Funny thing is, I've probably, heck I KNOW I've been building hotrods longer than that ol' boy has been turning wrenches and there was just nothing about this that said absolutely it's the converter. I suspected it, but he was just dead sure after a 2 minute drive.

Full time wrencher one, shade tree mechanic zero. LOL

I inspected the old converter and it seems to have these little nodules or balls of what looks like lead or zinc plugging more than a 1/3rd of the honeycomb. I can only assume we have been using an injector cleaner that contains zinc. I remember reading something about some cleaners being zinc based and it being bad for converters.

GO FIGURE!

Well this is one for the memory banks for both of us. Although, at my age, I HOPE I don't ever have to remember it cause that ain't a sure thing anymore.

Anyway, just wanted to update you and thank you for sticking with me on this. While we didn't figure it out in the end, I learned a lot about modern systems from our conversations and I really appreciate it.

THANK YOU Doc, it's been a pleasure brother!

JD.
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Sunday, March 10th, 2019 AT 11:09 AM (Merged)
Tiny
CARADIODOC
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Dandy. Happy to hear it's solved. I'll try to remember this in case I run into it again.
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Sunday, March 10th, 2019 AT 11:09 AM (Merged)

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