put the key in the ignition, and turned the key, no starter noise?

1998 BUICK LESABRE

280,000 MILES • 3.8L • 6 CYL • 2WD • AUTOMATIC

ALPHAA10

MEMBER
232 POSTS

Joe,

Last time I faced a non-start situation was September 14, 2021. Here is the link-- https://www.2carpros.com/questions/flashing-security-warning-on-dash-no-crank-no-click/r/991766741

This time, there is no security issue with the body control module, since the instrument panel indicator "Security" comes on briefly, and disappears again, and the ABS indicator flashes and disappears, as well.

The new problem appeared after I had driven at least ten miles around the city with no issues. I parked, turned off the ignition, locked the car doors, and went inside the house. I returned to the car about four hours later, put the key in the ignition, and turned the key-- no starter noise, but an instrument panel full of indicators.

(1) OIL, TEMP, BATT
(2) When I turn the ignition key ON, but not to start position, all the indicators light, but Security and ABS flash briefly but soon disappear.
(3) With key turned to start, foot on brake pedal, I hear no starter noise, with no change in indicator light intensity. Security and ABS indicators flash briefly, but soon disappear.

Already, I have checked the Minifuses and Maxifuses with a VOM, and all appear OK. I have not checked the relays, yet. Battery is OK, with driving lights full on.

Questions and Comments--

1. At first glance, this appears a starter relay issue, but I am rusty since the last time I traced the starter circuit 19 months ago. Going over my notes from 2021, my problem with checking the relay was concern about breaking the plastic relay housing, which is pushed over the relay connector until a clip clicks into place. In trying to release the relay cover. I have tried a straight-bladed screwdriver, without results-- is there a better technique?

2. Purchasing an OBD2 scanner seems a time-saver. Scanners will not provide every answer but can be useful on the road in determining what to do next. Do you have a list of features I should look for in selecting a scanner for the Buick 98? (Features like "live readout", on-device display or smartphone, Read/Erase data, etc.)
What brand and model seems to be what I need?

Thanks, Joe!

Images (Click to enlarge)

May 2, 2023 at 7:40 PM

STRAILER

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Okay, let's check for power at the trigger wire of the starter when the key is in the crank position. Here is a guide to help us because it sounds like the starter when out:

https://www.2carpros.com/articles/starter-not-working-repair

Here is how to change the starter motor out in case you need it. Also try to crank the engine over in neutral. Check out the images (below). Let us know what happens and please upload pictures or videos of the problem so we can see what's going on.

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May 3, 2023 at 9:21 AM

ALPHAA10

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"... because it sounds like the starter when out"?
--------------------
Do you mean the starter went out?

May 3, 2023 at 10:16 AM

STRAILER

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I mean the starter motor is not working, did you check for power at the trigger wire when the ignition is in the crank position?

May 4, 2023 at 4:30 AM

ALPHAA10

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232 POSTS

Ken, I'll have to find somebody ASAP to check the solenoid trigger wire. since this requires two people (or one, with extremely long arms).
Thanks for your follow up.

May 4, 2023 at 7:26 AM

STRAILER

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lol yep, please let me know.

May 5, 2023 at 2:56 AM

ALPHAA10

MEMBER
232 POSTS

Ken,

While I have a candidate in mind for testing the starter solenoid, he is not available, yet. Meanwhile, I have two questions--
When I turn the ignition key to the start position (with foot on the brake pedal and drive selector in Park) the starter is silent ("no crank" condition). However, the Oil, Temperature and Battery indicators, as well as Check Engine and ABS stay on. Appearing briefly, but disappearing some 4 seconds later, is the indicator for Security.
1. The ABS (anti-lock) system should not be on, at any time, should it?
2. All my Maxifuses and Minifuses look okay, but the starter relays (located above the fuse row. and consisting of small, 1-inch square, grey plastic housings, pose a problem when I try to remove one of them. Each of the grey plastic housings is held in-place by a small, light blue plastic "foot' (see photo under my first post, above). How can I remove each housing for closer inspection and a continuity test?

May 7, 2023 at 1:44 PM

STRAILER

✓Experienced Mechanic
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The Oil, Temperature and Battery indicators, as well as Check Engine and ABS. This is normal. To remove the locking tab push downward and inward at the same time the tab should release, let me know what you find out.

May 8, 2023 at 10:36 AM

ALPHAA10

MEMBER
232 POSTS

On the solenoid test, with ignition key in crank position, the instructions say I should measure the voltage from the S-connector wire through my VOM to the battery negative terminal. The same instructions say I should pierce/probe the S connector wire with my VOM lead (or sharp pin connected to that lead). Why can't I simply connect to the S terminal, directly, with the VOM lead?

May 10, 2023 at 5:05 PM

STRAILER

✓Experienced Mechanic
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You can, if that's the way you want to do it, which will work. Let me know if you have power at the trigger wire.

May 11, 2023 at 2:50 AM

ALPHAA10

MEMBER
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Ken,

As promised, here are the results of the solenoid trigger wire test.

1. There is no power at the trigger wire. Connecting the battery negative terminal to the solenoid S terminal, and my assistant switching the ignition key to start position, my VOM showed zero volts. We did this several times, checking connections to be sure.
2. With the ignition key removed and connecting the solenoid positive terminal to the battery positive terminal, the starter cranked. So, the starter appears to be okay, for now.
3. Now, attention turns to the relays. This afternoon, I also bought two starter relays, one with four blades and the other with five. Since I already have removed one of the series of relay cubes below the Maxifuse row, I know these relay cubes are the four-blade type, but the starter relay may have five blades.

After researching, it appears the relay cube is not below the Maxifuses, but located inside the car, facing the instrument panel. Suggestions?

May 12, 2023 at 9:24 AM

STRAILER

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Sure, here is the location of the starter relay. Check out the images (below). Please let us know what happens.

Images (Click to enlarge)

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May 13, 2023 at 3:17 AM

ALPHAA10

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232 POSTS

Ken,

Thank you for the starter relay location illustrations.

However, despite repeated efforts to peer deeper behind the instrument panel/cover, I could not locate the relay. Of course, I am familiar with removing the lower dash panel which contains the Mini fuse panel and the data terminal, so this area is somewhat familiar.

With that large dash panel hanging (supported) near the floorboards, I used a flashlight to search behind and higher, for any switch matching the illustration you sent. From my own research, the relay location is described as to the left of the steering column support, and above.

The actual location would be easier to find if I had a photo of that area, showing the relay location in relation to the fuse panel and/or steering column support. I am searching now for such a photo.

May 13, 2023 at 11:18 AM

ALPHAA10

MEMBER
232 POSTS

Here are two photos taken of the under-dash area, with a caption on each photo to help orient your view. The only verbal instructions I could find referred to a location (1) to the left of the steering column support, (2) above the fuse panel, and (3) near the windshield cowl base. (That may mean more to you than it does to me.)
The only location I could not examine very easily is another wire junction with a thick white nylon connector, and I am not sure how to check behind the connector.

Images (Click to enlarge)

May 14, 2023 at 6:29 PM

STRAILER

✓Experienced Mechanic
55,249 POSTS

The relay is located at the steering column support so you will need to look up under the dashboard further. I would use a flashlight. Please let us know what you find.

May 15, 2023 at 3:12 AM

ALPHAA10

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No results, so far. I moved the driver's seat backward to enable me to lie on my back (awkwardly) and shine the large, hand-held lantern around the interior, well above the steering column. Found plenty of connectors, but none had dimensions of the four- or five-bladed starter relay the auto parts store provided. The one cover I did not look behind protects the gas pedal linkage, but I used my fingers to detect anything behind the gas pedal linkage cover. Do you have any idea which side of the steering column to search?

May 16, 2023 at 1:22 PM

STRAILER

✓Experienced Mechanic
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They show the relay above the main electrical connector at the right side of the column, can you upload more images?

May 17, 2023 at 2:57 AM

ALPHAA10

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232 POSTS

We have rain through tomorrow, but I'll do what I can with more images of the area.

While checking beneath/behind the dashboard, I also tested the VATS bypass circuit I had to make the last time the car stopped. On that non-crank event, an instrument panel Security Warning flashed continuously, despite my using the original ignition key.

The home-made bypass is a single resistor (5W, 2000 Ohms), soldered into place across the two orange wires leading to the BCM. The resistor accepted the value it found when I turned the ignition key, and I have driven the car ever since without a problem.

Until now. So, in checking the resistor to make sure it had not disconnected or become damaged, I found the resistor intact, with completely normal appearance, but with a value of only 1331-1334 Ohms, instead of its nominal 2,000 Ohms. That surprised me, since a resistor can take high temperature (155C) and should fail upward-- showing a higher Ohm value, not a lower value.

So, today, I ordered a new resistor of the same specifications as the OEM ignition key's Hall Effect resistor-- 1861 Ohm. Since the VATS system did not reject even a 2000 Ohm resistor in the original bypass, perhaps replacing the wandering resistor with the 1800 Ohm resistor might do some good. At least, we'll know what the problem is not.

Since we are still focused on the starter enable relay, that is where I plan to spend whatever time I have until the resistor arrives. I'll follow your verbal guidance as best I can and see what I can discover-- with photo(s), if possible.

---------------------

Here is a link to the VATS non-crank adventure:
https://www.2carpros.com/questions/flashing-security-warning-on-dash-no-crank-no-click

May 17, 2023 at 12:58 PM

STRAILER

✓Experienced Mechanic
55,249 POSTS

Thanks for the information and the link. Please let me know when you can get under the dash again.

May 18, 2023 at 5:16 AM

ALPHAA10

MEMBER
232 POSTS

Ideally, my camera lens should be an ultra-wide-angle type. My current phone camera lens is not wide enough (it is only face-oriented, for selfies, presumably), and orienting details are lost when I move farther inside the dash.

Nonetheless, I've attached a few photos, so let me know what you find.

* My home-made circuit jumper is found in two photos and is outlined in a red rectangle.

Images (Click to enlarge)

May 22, 2023 at 5:17 PM

STRAILER

✓Experienced Mechanic
55,249 POSTS

Thanks for the photos, yep, that looks like a security system bypass. Is the security light flashing? Here is the starter wiring diagrams so you can see how the system works. I don't see the starter relay in those photos. It is on the bracket that holds the main electrical connector. Check out the images (below). Please let us know what happens.

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May 25, 2023 at 2:30 AM

ALPHAA10

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Ken,

Severe tendonitis has kept me off my feet for the past 10 days, so that accounts for this delayed response.

Your questions--
1. Instrument panel VATS warning does not flash and disappears normally after about 1-2 seconds. This behavior seems completely normal, despite the fact the bypass resistor's current value (on VOM test, and more than one year after the bypass was installed) now shows only 1331 Ohms, instead of the bypass resistor's original 2,000 Ohm value. The ignition key Hall-Effect resistor, from which the proper bypass resistor value was estimated, still shows 1861 Ohms. Since the bypass circuit does not produce a sustained VATS warning, should I replace the 1331 Ohm resistor, anyway?
2. My idea about replacing the starter enabler replay was simple deduction, since the starter, itself, cranks, but the starter enable (trigger) produces no current when the ignition key is turned to "start".
3. Thank you for additional information. What still puzzles me is which electrical connector you mean-- the specific location is still elusive. I expected to find a starter relay module in clear view, near the steering column. The diagram specifically positions the relay to the left of the steering column support. Tomorrow, if I can, I'll try another series of photos, to show you where my search is focused.

Jun 7, 2023 at 3:53 PM

STRAILER

✓Experienced Mechanic
55,249 POSTS

That would be great, I think we should check for power through the ignition switch, the fact that the security light is not flashing means the security system is not enabled. so let's trace the wires until we find where it loses power. You don't need a volt meter, a simple test light will do, I wouldn't worry about the resistor, I don't think that is the problem.

Jun 9, 2023 at 3:30 AM

ALPHAA10

MEMBER
232 POSTS

Ken,

Thanks for the word on the resistor. Having spent many hours diagnosing a VATS security lock-out, it did not make sense that if the resistor was faulty, the VATS warning was not active.
Regarding power through the ignition switch, I checked for end-of-circuit power through the ignition switch using an assistant to press the brake pedal while in Park and turn the key to start. Absolutely no voltage showed on my VOM, connected directly to the S connector (as described above in an earlier post).
As you point out, the problem lies somewhere in the circuit input for ignition. That is why I tried the "obvious" option of checking the starter enable relay. That relay is still invisible, despite many evenings of twisting myself onto the under-dash floorboard to search more closely.
The most specific information I have was found just hours ago, and I have spent as much time as I had taking photos and searching, according to the information. That information says, "The (starter-enabled) relay is found under the left-hand of the instrument panel, above the instrument panel fuse block. Look just left of the steering column support and on a bracket beside the main wiring conduit. You must remove the fuse block cover and panel."
* I have labeled two of the attached photos for your convenience, but hope they are not confusing in their orientation.

Images (Click to enlarge)

Jun 9, 2023 at 2:35 PM

STRAILER

✓Experienced Mechanic
55,249 POSTS

Thanks for the photos, I think I see the relay above the main electrical connector. If so let me know if there is activation voltage and output voltage. I think we are getting closer to fixing the problem.

Jun 11, 2023 at 3:51 AM

ALPHAA10

MEMBER
232 POSTS

If I can confirm the relay is "above" the main electrical connector-- that is, if I can find it-- replacement of the relay would seem in reach, at last. In the next 24 hours, I must plunder through my collection of auto tools to find the circuit tester.
At this point, I should mention I have located something of interest near the main electrical connector. With my fingers and a small lantern flashlight, I spotted a small cylindrical part, about the size of the relay cube. But its cylindrical/pot shape does not match either the four- or five-bladed relay cubes I bought from O'Reilly (making sure to specify Buick98, 3.8L, LeSabre Custom).
Just a thought-- do you have the ability to use Windows Paint (in every version of Windows) to draw an arrow in the photo to the part you believe may be the relay? Editing an arrow into a photo may be unfamiliar territory for you but could be a practical way for you to show me where the relay hides.

* BTW, I have confirmed I can right-click and "Save As" on any of the photos I posted, and download the photo to my desktop for editing. So, I presume you can do the same to download the photo file, edit an arrow into the photo, and then re-post the edited photo in your response.

** As I mentioned earlier, my tendonitis healed slowly, and I still cannot walk very far, so I understand the value of having a spare car or two. I appreciate your help immensely.

Jun 11, 2023 at 10:10 AM

ALPHAA10

MEMBER
232 POSTS

Here is a photo of the starter enable relay, but of two models, one with four blades, the other with five (and a steel retainer clip).
Note the small inset text box, with relay brand and each model number.

Image (Click to enlarge)

Jun 11, 2023 at 4:34 PM

ALPHAA10

MEMBER
232 POSTS

Here is another photo of the starter enable relay, which comes in two models-- one with four blades, and the other with five blades (and a steel retainer clip on the relay body).
Note the small inset text box, with relay brand and each model number, which I tried to make more legible.

Image (Click to enlarge)

Jun 14, 2023 at 8:52 AM

STRAILER

✓Experienced Mechanic
55,249 POSTS

Here is where it looks like it might be, check out the images (below). Please let us know what happens.

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Jun 15, 2023 at 5:29 AM

ALPHAA10

MEMBER
232 POSTS

Thanks, I'll look behind the main electrical connector, next. What threw me off was the source I quoted, saying the relay is on a bracket beside the main connector-- not behind it.

Jun 15, 2023 at 1:08 PM

ALPHAA10

MEMBER
232 POSTS

Ken,

Despite lingering tendonitis, my feet and ankles are improved enough, I went back to work on the car this morning. Wedging into the left-side, below-dash floorboard area. I located the main electrical connector, with a plan to remove its single hex screw (7mm), but the screw-- even loosened to max-- did not allow the nylon connector to be removed. Nonetheless, I used my fingers to reach behind the main electrical connector but found nothing there.
Reviewing my work, I have looked everywhere on the right and left sides of the steering column, and am familiar with the location of the instrument panel fuse block and of the main electrical connector. Nowhere have I found anything resembling the two starter enable relays (4- and 5-blade) I purchased..
Quite a few forums address various GM issues, and some offer schematics which may vary from GM model to model. Somehow, my Buick 98 starter enable relay location is clearly visible on the schematic you sent (in a previous post), yet cannot be located visually in any of the forum offerings. The location you arrowed for me in a photo as a likely position turned out to have nothing behind it.

Jun 19, 2023 at 1:22 AM

ALPHAA10

MEMBER
232 POSTS

What I need, at this point, is a clear photo, not a line drawing, which helps orient me to the actual location. Photos submitted by owners/users are usually not very helpful, and there are very few sharp and clearly defined enough to contribute anything.
Am I giving up? Of course, not. I am stuck with this problem. The only way out is through.

Jun 19, 2023 at 4:45 AM

STRAILER

✓Experienced Mechanic
55,249 POSTS

Great attitude! I checked for a 1999 year car and they say it is in the fuse panel, maybe your car was in a mid-year update, please check out the images below. Please let us know how it goes.

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Jun 20, 2023 at 2:54 AM

ALPHAA10

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232 POSTS

The fuse and relay panel layout does not match my vehicle-- but it was a good, intuitive try. Would the VIN help? VIN 1G4HP52K5WH500185
I have attached a photo of the below dash, inside MiniFuse panel (driver left), showing no relay cubes. Tomorrow, or whenever I can catch a break in the rain, I'll take another, better photo of the inside fuse panel (115A) and the outside MaxiFuse panel and outside relay panel layouts.
BTW-- Months ago, before all this happened, I purchased a PDF copy of the actual shop manual, but even that does not have specifics on the relay location.
We know one thing-- the Buick 98 LeSabre 3.8L has a starter enable relay, and its location is clearly indicated in the line drawing and schematic you have provided and which I have found elsewhere, too. But no photos, of course.
You indicated earlier it is time to trace the ignition circuit. What do you think about this approach?-- from the schematic, identify the two lines leading to and from the starter enable relay, then trace each line physically from each end of the circuit back to the relay. Somehow, the incoming pair and outgoing pair ought to coincide at the relay location. I know from the schematic there is a yellow (Y) and purple (PPL) wire pair entering and exiting the relay. That indicates the enable relay is (probably) a four-blade unit, although the line drawing clearly shows a metal clip attached to the relay body and suggests a five-blade relay unit.
Since I never have traced auto circuits before, I need to spend some time outside looking at the schematic, then tracing the lines.
A persistent weather low is parked over the SE US where I live, and I may be in for some continuous rain delay. All to say, I appreciate you're not giving up on me as I struggle through this.

Image (Click to enlarge)

Jun 20, 2023 at 12:56 PM

STRAILER

✓Experienced Mechanic
55,249 POSTS

Okay, so it looks like we are stuck with finding the relay under the dash on the left side. Sometimes they are tucked up behind a brace or something. Also look on top of the column as well. I have seen them behind the instrument cluster as well, here is how to remove it for inspection. Also, maybe you can lower the column to gain better access. Check out the images (below). Please let us know how it goes.

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Jun 21, 2023 at 3:15 AM

ALPHAA10

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Updating you: My tendonitis has vanished, but the rain continues. Despite that, I have traced the positive line from the battery to the relay and Maxifuse bank, and this is where the fun begins-- at the power distribution bus.

According to all references I have read, the starter enable relay is inside, beneath the dash, but just to be sure, I first looked over each relay or fuse on the firewall power panel, and found no label referred to a starter.

Looking beneath the dash, again, I had no better luck, so far. So, the rest is tracing down from the steering column, to reach the circuit contact points for the starter trigger circuit.

In that regard, a question-- Is it necessary to pull the steering column housing? That is, do you know of a better way to check contact points from the ignition switch?

Jul 7, 2023 at 5:13 AM

STRAILER

✓Experienced Mechanic
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I found a better image for the location of the relay; it is way up above the steering column mounting plate. Please check out the images below.

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Jul 8, 2023 at 4:01 AM

ALPHAA10

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Thanks, Ken, I'll look for it.
Of course, it is perfectly logical that no accurate Buick-issued instructions for the relay location exist, but another, unlabeled Buick view might contain exactly what we need. Hope so, anyway.
Should I remove anything on the steering column and/or its support bracket to reach this location? I know it's largely up to me to determine that, but I just wondered.

Jul 8, 2023 at 9:41 AM

STRAILER

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55,249 POSTS

I would use a flashlight and mirror on a stick to help see up and around the column. You should be able to see it.

Jul 10, 2023 at 2:33 AM

ALPHAA10

MEMBER
232 POSTS

Ken,

Is there any possibility the VATS bypass that I created, using a 2k Ohm resistor, could be faulty, since its latest Ohm value (by VOM test) is down to 1334 Ohms? The difference between the resistor's installed Ohm value and the much lower current value is my only reason for asking.
Of course, it would not make sense for my VATS bypass resistor to be the problem-- even if of the wrong value. Currently, the VATS system seems normal-- its "Security" warning does not flash, but stays solid for about five seconds, and then disappears. Besides, I operated the car with no cranking problem when the resistor was below the ignition key's 1861 Ohm value.

Jul 14, 2023 at 5:55 AM

ALPHAA10

MEMBER
232 POSTS

Another update--
1. I checked thoroughly with flashlight and mirror but saw nothing which matched the size and shape of the starter enable relay purchased from the manager of my local O'Reilly auto parts store. However, while searching in exactly the area you and others suggested, I did find an oddly shaped plastic connector which had four wires running from it-- two light yellow, one light yellow with black stripe and one green. Since the connector was firmly in-place, I decided not to apply major force until I understood which way to pull or pry.
2. Now, the interesting part. I had put away all my tools and was on the way inside the house, when I stopped, recalling the image of something odd I had seen beneath the dash, in the Mini fuse panel. I turned around, unlocked the car, and looked carefully at Mini fuse location 2E, which I had presumed was empty on first inspection (not remembering this is the starter enable circuit fuse location). Looking more closely, I saw-- inside each leg of the socket-- was what appeared to be the silver stump of a Mini fuse.
Apparently, fuse 2E had blown/melted, and its red plastic cap had fallen off, leaving only the two metal remnants of the fuse, deep in the socket. Tomorrow, I'll use a turkey basting needle to probe inside the socket to pry out the fuse leg stump. If I am successful with that operation, the next step is to find another 10A fuse, or borrow one from the spares in the fuse panel and see what happens.

Jul 14, 2023 at 12:22 PM

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