Shut off at a stoplight and will not restart?

Tiny
PAPAKEIF
  • MEMBER
  • 2002 DODGE NEON
  • 4 CYL
  • 2WD
  • MANUAL
  • 200,000 MILES
With one-half tank of gas, suddenly stalled at a stoplight and will not start. It turns over but acts like it's out of gas. It's getting fuel to the rail and I've replaced spark plugs, wires, cam position sensor. The injectors get a pulse from the neg but no voltage from the hot. Checked all the way back to harness and discovered only two pin positions are getting voltage from the PDC. All fuses are good and relays too. I'm stumped.
Tuesday, July 19th, 2022 AT 4:03 PM

8 Replies

Tiny
JACOBANDNICKOLAS
  • MECHANIC
  • 109,747 POSTS
Hi,

Power to the injectors comes from fuse 21 in the PDC and the ASD relay. Check fuse 21 and make sure it is both good and has power to both sides. It should have B+ voltage at all times. Here is a link that explains what I need to be done:

https://www.2carpros.com/articles/how-to-check-a-car-fuse

If that is good, I need you to remove the ASD relay. There should be power to two of the four pins in the box. If there is, then confirm number 38 in the pic below has continuity to ground. That pin provides a ground path from the PCM (ASD relay control/dark blue wire with a yellow tracer).

Let me know what you find.

Take care,

Joe

See pic below.
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Tuesday, July 19th, 2022 AT 9:36 PM
Tiny
PAPAKEIF
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  • 5 POSTS
Fuse 21 has power to both sides and I've got power to two pin on the ASD relay. How do I check continuity on #38?
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Saturday, July 23rd, 2022 AT 3:26 PM
Tiny
PAPAKEIF
  • MEMBER
  • 5 POSTS
I get a pulse on the injectors from the ground when I try and turn it over, but nothing from the green/orange wire.
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Saturday, July 23rd, 2022 AT 3:29 PM
Tiny
JACOBANDNICKOLAS
  • MECHANIC
  • 109,747 POSTS
Hi,

If the relay isn't closing, that is why you aren't getting power. Did you try a different relay? If you don't have one, here is a link that explains how to test a relay:

https://www.2carpros.com/articles/how-to-check-an-electrical-relay-and-wiring-control-circuit

As far as checking for continuity, all you need is a multimeter. Se it to Ohms and touch the two connectors together to confirm it goes to 0. Take a look through this link:

https://www.2carpros.com/articles/how-to-check-wiring

Let me know what you find.

Take care,

Joe
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Saturday, July 23rd, 2022 AT 9:42 PM
Tiny
PAPAKEIF
  • MEMBER
  • 5 POSTS
Everything seems to be checking out just fine. Okay, let's start at the initial problem. I was at a light, engine idling normally, then it just shut off. Refuses to start ever since. What would cause it to just shut off like that without any noticeable signs?
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Sunday, July 24th, 2022 AT 5:07 PM
Tiny
CARADIODOC
  • MECHANIC
  • 33,873 POSTS
Hi guys. Allow me to add a couple of thoughts. I don't see anywhere yet that the diagnostic fault codes were read. That should be the first thing. Chrysler made doing that yourself much easier than any other manufacturer. Cycle the ignition switch from "off" to "run" three times within five seconds without cranking the engine. Leave it in "run", then watch the code number appear in the odometer display. You can go here:

https://www.2carpros.com/trouble_codes/obd2

to see the definitions, or either of us can interpret them for you.

If you get a code related to "cam and crank sync", there's two common causes for that. With the dual camshaft engine, suspect the timing belt has jumped two teeth. Same with the single-cam engine, but in addition, the dowel pin between the camshaft and its sprocket can shear off, then the sprocket can spin slightly on the shaft. The Engine Computers in this model are programmed to turn on the Check Engine light if the timing chain jumps one tooth, or the sprocket spins an equivalent amount. It will shut the engine down if the belt jumps two teeth, to protect the valves. At three teeth off, if you continue trying to start the engine, the open valves will be hit by the pistons and be bent.

Your description of the tests you performed already sound suspiciously similar to the first one of these I ran into with the sheared dowel pin.
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Sunday, July 24th, 2022 AT 7:54 PM
Tiny
PAPAKEIF
  • MEMBER
  • 5 POSTS
The codes that came up were a couple relating to cylinder misfire but also a p0340 code. I replaced the cam position sensor. But im baffled by having no hot wire voltage to the fuel injectors. I do get a pulse from the ground when I crank it but nothing from the other wire. Relays are good and fuses are good.
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Saturday, July 30th, 2022 AT 5:34 PM
Tiny
CARADIODOC
  • MECHANIC
  • 33,873 POSTS
There should be no pulses on any ground wires. I'm not sure how you're getting that result, but you should find 0.2 volts on the ground wires for the sensors because those go to ground through the Engine Computer first. In it, the monitoring circuitry is responsible for "dropping" that 0.2 volts. Most people don't notice that 0.2 volts and see it as 0.0 volts, which is okay.

I never measured the voltages on the ground, or "return" wires for the injectors and ignition coils, but those also go to ground through the computer and its switching transistors. That would suggest there will be more than 0.0 volts on them, but that's hard to measure because there's current pulsing on and off through them. A break in one of those ground wires would stop one injector or one ignition coil from working, but that would result in different symptoms. The engine would try to run, but very poorly.

I'm more interested in your observation, " im baffled by having no hot wire voltage to the fuel injectors.", And earlier you were on the right track when you found 0 volts on the dark green / orange wire. That voltage comes from the automatic shutdown, (ASD) relay two times. First, you will find 12 volts on that wire at any injector, any ignition coil, and on the two smaller terminals on the back of the alternator, for one second when the ignition switch is turned to "run". That's best observed with a test light because most digital voltmeters don't respond fast enough. If you see the light turn on for that one second, it proves that entire circuit and relay are okay, and the computer has control of it.

Next, the ASD relay turns on again when the computer sees engine rotation, (cranking or running). That's when it sends 12 volts to the ignition coils, injectors, alternator field, oxygen sensor heaters, and fuel pump or pump relay. The computer knows the engine is rotating by the signal pulses it receives from the crankshaft position sensor and the camshaft position sensor.

I'm sorry if I'm repeating myself. I'd rather do that as long as it means I haven't overlooked an important comment.

The crank / no-start I was involved with was caused by the sheared-off dowel pin I described earlier, but one ignition coil did turn on and off intermittently during cranking, which added to the confusion. I had that fault code for "cam and crank sync". You don't have that code. Instead, you have the more common code 340. Joe is more than qualified to continue on with your diagnosis. I just wanted to add these comments of value so no possible elusive cause got overlooked. I'll pop back if I feel the need to add another wondrous comment.
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Saturday, July 30th, 2022 AT 6:22 PM

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