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Engine has no spark!

Tiny
RAPTORMAN40
  • MEMBER
  • 1999 PLYMOUTH BREEZE
  • 4 CYL
  • 2WD
  • AUTOMATIC
  • 131,426 MILES
Our '99 Plymouth Breeze 2.0 ltr started throwing a CKP/CMP Sensor / Timing Belt code and running like it had major issues. I replaced both sensors with brand new ones from my local auto parts store. Also replaced the timing belt and the engine mounts on the front and passenger side. Anyway the belt job was not my first and it was done to spec.

I started the vehicle and it ran perfect until my wife took a 65 mile journey. She turned the car off and did her thing then came back to leave and it would not start. The starter would engage and turn the engine over but it wouldn't start. I had a look at it and found out there was not a spark to be found from the coil pack.

I pulled out the trusty multimeter and went to work on it. I tested the coil pack and it was within spec and was not malfunctioning. I tested the signal wire going to the coil and it was not sending a signal from the PCM to the coil to spark. I then tested the CKP sensor and I found it perfectly within spec and even replaced it again to be certain. Whil replacing it I looked at the crankshaft an noticed nothing wrong. No wear and tear to it and it looked in good shape for what I could see through a 3/4 inch hole. I then tested the CMP sensor and it checked out fine as well. Both sensor wires had perfect voltage of 5 volts and were sending signal.

Now I'm not throwing ANY codes. Not a one. The CKP/CMP sensor timing belt code no longer showed as it shouldn't since every one of them was replaced. My question is, could my PCU or ECM have gone bad or even my power distribution unit? I dont see what else could cause the coil to not recieve signal and NOT throw any codes.

One time there was a momentary charge on the ASD relay output (harness side) but after that nothing. After several attempts to get a reading off of it there was nothing.

ANY HELP ON THIS HEADACHE WOULD BE MOOOOOSSSSSST APPRECIATED! Thank you in advance.
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Wednesday, January 12th, 2011 AT 8:00 PM

15 Replies

Tiny
DOCFIXIT
  • MECHANIC
  • 18,828 POSTS
Is there power to ASD? If yes then PCM not grounding relay try jumpering to output wire on ASD see if it fires
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Wednesday, January 12th, 2011 AT 9:12 PM
Tiny
RAPTORMAN40
  • MEMBER
  • 10 POSTS
You know that stands to reason. I actually didn't think of the ASD an I dont know why it didnt cross my mind. There has actually been a power drain going on as well and the ASD not shutting down would explain that. Do you possibly have a diagram that tells which inputs are which for the relay? Also shouldn't the relay being open cause the ECU to throw a code?
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Wednesday, January 12th, 2011 AT 10:08 PM
Tiny
RAPTORMAN40
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  • 10 POSTS
Also I get off work in a few min an I will make the trek to the car an run the test on the ASD. It's quite a ways from where I currently am. Sigh.
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Wednesday, January 12th, 2011 AT 10:26 PM
Tiny
RAPTORMAN40
  • MEMBER
  • 10 POSTS
I have a short to ground I think on the #89 circuit. The dark grn/orange wire is pulling continuity to ground. I disconnected the O2 Downstream sensor and still had the continuity. I checked the continuity to the coil pack and it's there as well. Where might the continuity come from? There is only a couple breaks in that line. O2 Sensor to Power distribution to coil pack, then back to the ASD Relay. Any ideas?
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Thursday, January 13th, 2011 AT 1:19 AM
Tiny
RAPTORMAN40
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Oh and sorry the answer to your original question is yes there is constant 12v power to both #91 and #97. #93 had no power or continuity to ground.
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Thursday, January 13th, 2011 AT 1:23 AM
Tiny
RAPTORMAN40
  • MEMBER
  • 10 POSTS
Update: I jumper'ed #89 to #97 and #91 an got zip. I then tried to jumper from #93 to #89 and got a loud warble from the relay and no start. I went through the wiring diagram and now see that Dark Green/Orange goes through tons of things. From injectors to sensors and even the noise suppressor. At this point my hands are in the air. Should I try and replace something, say the power distribution unit or the PCM? Any thoughts at this point would be most welcome.
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Thursday, January 13th, 2011 AT 2:31 AM
Tiny
CARADIODOC
  • MECHANIC
  • 33,916 POSTS
If you have the single overhead cam engine, don't overlook a sheared off dowel pin between the camshaft and sprocket. It will cause the code "cam and crank sync", and the no-start can be intermittent.

Caradiodoc
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Thursday, January 13th, 2011 AT 4:30 AM
Tiny
RAPTORMAN40
  • MEMBER
  • 10 POSTS
I was getting codes P1390 and P1391 Timing Belt Skip and Intermittant loss of CMP or CKP. I do have a SOHC and would check in to the pin but when I replaced the timing belt I could tell the belt was as old as the vehicle and had skipped about 3-4 teeth. Also the CKP sensor was not showing proper resistence and was plain dead. I checked both the crank and cam gears and they looked in fine condition. There was no wobble or play. I have the mech tensioner and not the hydro, which was cause for alarm but there was proper tension on the belt after install of the new belt. Tonight I even took the timing belt cover off again just to see if the timing was correct and it's still on the money.
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Thursday, January 13th, 2011 AT 5:02 AM
Tiny
CARADIODOC
  • MECHANIC
  • 33,916 POSTS
If you're still getting the codes after replacing the belt, check that dowel pin. It lets the camshaft turn on the sprocket a little. Since the camshaft position sensor is on the other end, it's pulses are late as is the camshaft, but the sprocket timing is correct.

When the belt jumps one tooth, or the camshaft spins on the sprocket by the same amount, the Engine Computer will turn on the Check Engine light. At two teeth it will shut the engine down by turning off the automatic shutdown (ASD) relay. At three teeth, valves will hit the pistons.

Caradiodoc
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Thursday, January 13th, 2011 AT 5:26 AM
Tiny
RAPTORMAN40
  • MEMBER
  • 10 POSTS
I'm not getting any codes. Sigh, thats why I dont know what else to go with. After I replaced the sensors and the belts the MIL turned off and the computer thinks everything is ok. Obviously it's not, the car wont start. I think Docfixit was on the right track with the ASD but i'm not that familiar with late model electrical systems. My problem though is that the computer is NOT throwing a code to point me in at least any direction as to why the coil isn't firing off a spark.

Also after much research in to the engine being interference or non-interference for my exact year. I even went to the dealership and gave my VIN. They told me that my engine is non-interference and unless there is excessive buildup on the piston heads my valves wouldn't impact the pistons. I was very worried about that fact. But as I said before the car ran like a charm after the belt and sensors was replaced. It just stopped starting after a loooonnnng trip because there was not any spark getting to the plugs.

After much testing of the CMP and CKP sensors and thier wires proved they were "fine" I didn't know where to turn. Then Docfixit stated I should look at the ASD and found that the Dark Green/Orange wire (ASD Output) had continuity to ground. I didnt know if that wire SHOULD have continuity to ground and that the stinking wire seemed to snake ALL through the engine to everything from coil to injectors to O2 Sensors. I even jumped the ASD output to the 12v always hot connect in the ASD an didn't get spark. I even tested the harness side connector to the coil pack and found 12.2v on the line but no spark still going to the plugs. So I was sitting here racking my tiny brain to come up with some reason why I would NOT throw a code and the car still wouldn't start. Hehe thats why I turn to the pros before I take a baseball bat to my wife's car and end up on the couch for a year.
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Thursday, January 13th, 2011 AT 6:58 PM
Tiny
CARADIODOC
  • MECHANIC
  • 33,916 POSTS
Measure the voltage on that dark green / orange wire right after turning on the ignition switch. It should be full battery voltage for just one second, then it will go back to 0 volts until you start cranking the engine. If it's there for the first second, the computer has control of the automatic shutdown relay and the wiring is ok.

When there's no code, either the conditions haven't been met to set the code or the problem is in a circuit that is not monitored. As an example, current flow to the coil pack primary is monitored as well as the switching circuits in the computer. The high voltage output is not monitored, so there are no codes related to a defective secondary side of the coil.

The next thing to do would be to connect the Chrysler DRB3 scanner, or any aftermarket scanner that can display live data. Look for the cam and crank sensors and see if the display says "present" or "yes" during cranking. If both are present but the ASD relay isn't turning on during cranking, check the dowel pin between the camshaft and sprocket.

Caradiodoc
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Thursday, January 13th, 2011 AT 7:28 PM
Tiny
RAPTORMAN40
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  • 10 POSTS
There is no voltage on the dark green / orange wire at any time unless I jump it to a straight 12v. I replaced my ASD Relay and still had the same issue. No voltage on the Drk Grn / Orange wire. It has continuity to ground though and will act like a ground wire. Sadly even when I jump the wire to 12v it doesn't start the engine and the PCU doesn't send a signal to the coil on either #1 or #2 coils to fire.

I bought a new dowel pin for the camshaft gear and replaced it just to make certain. The original was fine but I replaced it anyway. I still dont have spark. Also both sensors read "Present" on my actron cp9580. As well as every other sensor that sends signal prior to ignition. Any other thoughts?
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Thursday, January 13th, 2011 AT 9:47 PM
Tiny
DOCFIXIT
  • MECHANIC
  • 18,828 POSTS
Looks like where at a point where PCM is looking like the problem. When you jumpered 12v and cranked no spark?
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Thursday, January 13th, 2011 AT 9:57 PM
Tiny
RAPTORMAN40
  • MEMBER
  • 10 POSTS
Not a flicker of even a thought of a spark. I will go tomorrow to my local U-Pull It an get a PCM an see if that works.
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Friday, January 14th, 2011 AT 3:29 AM
Tiny
LACHYTOON
  • MEMBER
  • 21 POSTS
I have the same problem with my 99 Plymouth breeze, I even replaced my pcm and tcm, power distribution box and wiring hairiness and I still don't get the ground from the pcm to the coil the problem is in the line that goes from the O2 downstream sensor fuse to the sensor is grounded. I replaced my 02 sensor and it fixed the problem.
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Saturday, June 21st, 2014 AT 9:58 PM

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