P0018 and P0019 after work done

Welcome to 2CarPros.

Based on what you did, this doesn't make sense. It sounds like it is a timing issue as you mentioned, but you did nothing to the timing. At this point, we have two choices, and these are based on everything you described. Either the compression needs tested to help confirm that it isn't a timing issue or you need to expose the timing chain and check. My manual indicates to confirm timing, it is necessary to follow the left side timing chain replacement. procedure. I'm not sure which you want to do, so I will provide directions for the chain. Also, I will provide a link for compression.

https://www.2carpros.com/articles/how-to-test-engine-compression

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Here are the directions for the left cam chain. The attached pictures correlate with the directions.

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2009 Saturn Truck Outlook FWD V6-3.6L
Secondary Camshaft Intermediate Drive Chain Replacement - Left
Vehicle Engine, Cooling and Exhaust Engine Timing Components Timing Chain Service and Repair Removal and Replacement Secondary Camshaft Intermediate Drive Chain Replacement - Left
SECONDARY CAMSHAFT INTERMEDIATE DRIVE CHAIN REPLACEMENT - LEFT
SECONDARY CAMSHAFT INTERMEDIATE DRIVE CHAIN REPLACEMENT - LEFT

Removal Procedure
1. Remove the engine front cover. See: Timing Cover > Removal and Replacement > Engine Front Cover Replacement

2. Remove the right bank secondary camshaft drive chain tensioner. See: Engine > Overhaul > 16. Secondary Camshaft Drive Chain Tensioner Removal - Right Side

3. Remove the right bank secondary camshaft drive chain shoe. See: Engine > Overhaul > 17. Secondary Camshaft Drive Chain Shoe Removal - Right Side

4. Remove the right bank secondary camshaft drive chain guide. See: Engine > Overhaul > 18. Secondary Camshaft Drive Chain Guide Removal - Right Side

5. Remove the right bank secondary camshaft drive chain. See: Engine > Overhaul > 19. Secondary Camshaft Drive Chain Removal - Right Side

6. Remove the primary camshaft drive chain tensioner. See: Engine > Overhaul > 20. Primary Camshaft Intermediate Drive Chain Tensioner Removal

7. Remove the primary upper camshaft drive chain guide. See: Engine > Overhaul > 21. Primary Timing Chain Guide Removal - Upper

8. Remove the primary camshaft drive chain. See: Engine > Overhaul > 23. Primary Camshaft Intermediate Drive Chain Removal

9. Remove the right bank camshaft intermediate drive chain idler. See: Engine > Overhaul > 24. Camshaft Intermediate Drive Chain Idler Removal - Right Side

10. Remove the left bank secondary camshaft drive chain tensioner. See: Engine > Overhaul > 25. Secondary Camshaft Drive Chain Tensioner Removal - Left Side

11. Remove the left bank secondary camshaft drive chain shoe. See: Engine > Overhaul > 26. Secondary Camshaft Drive Chain Shoe Removal - Left Side

12. Remove the left bank secondary camshaft drive chain guide. See: Engine > Overhaul > 27. Secondary Camshaft Drive Chain Guide Removal - Left Side

13. Remove the left bank camshaft intermediate drive chain idler. See: Engine > Overhaul > 29. Camshaft Intermediate Drive Chain Idler Removal - Left Side

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14. Remove the left bank secondary camshaft drive chain. See: Engine > Overhaul > 28. Secondary Camshaft Drive Chain Removal - Left Side

15. Clean and inspect all of the camshaft timing drive components. Replace components as necessary. See: Engine > Overhaul > 67. Camshaft Timing Chain and Sprocket Cleaning and Inspection

Installation Procedure


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1. Install the left bank secondary camshaft drive chain. See: Engine > Overhaul > 113. Secondary Camshaft Drive Chain Installation - Left Side

2. Install the left bank camshaft intermediate drive chain idler. See: Engine > Overhaul > 112. Camshaft Intermediate Drive Chain Idler Installation - Left Side

3. Install the left bank secondary camshaft drive chain guide. See: Engine > Overhaul > 114. Secondary Camshaft Drive Chain Guide Installation - Left Side

4. Install the left bank secondary camshaft drive chain shoe. See: Engine > Overhaul > 115. Secondary Camshaft Drive Chain Shoe Installation - Left Side

5. Install the left bank secondary camshaft drive chain tensioner. See: Engine > Overhaul > 116. Secondary Camshaft Drive Chain Tensioner Installation - Left Side

6. Install the right bank camshaft intermediate drive chain idler. See: Engine > Overhaul > 117. Camshaft Intermediate Drive Chain Idler Installation - Right Side

7. Install the primary camshaft drive chain. See: Engine > Overhaul > 118. Primary Camshaft Intermediate Drive Chain Installation

8. Install the primary upper camshaft drive chain guide. See: Engine > Overhaul > 120. Primary Timing Chain Guide Installation - Upper

9. Install the primary camshaft drive chain tensioner. See: Engine > Overhaul > 121. Primary Camshaft Intermediate Drive Chain Tensioner Installation

10. Install the right bank secondary camshaft drive chain. See: Engine > Overhaul > 122. Secondary Camshaft Drive Chain Installation - Right Side

11. Install the right bank secondary camshaft drive chain guide. See: Engine > Overhaul > 123. Secondary Camshaft Drive Chain Guide Installation - Right Side

12. Install the right bank secondary camshaft drive chain shoe. See: Engine > Overhaul > 124. Secondary Camshaft Drive Chain Shoe Installation - Right Side

13. Install the right bank secondary camshaft drive chain tensioner. See: Engine > Overhaul > 125. Secondary Camshaft Drive Chain Tensioner Installation - Right Side

14. Install the engine front cover. See: Timing Cover > Removal and Replacement > Engine Front Cover Replacement

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I would go with the compression test, but that's your call. Regardless, let me know what you find.

Joe

Thanks for the reply. I agree based on what I’ve done the symptoms make no sense at all. I know there are recalls on this model for timing chain issues but they were performed on this vehicle before I bought it. Also to occur coincidentally during my work seems almost impossible. I’ll consider the options. I may start with removing the front valve cover and inspecting the timing chain from there before moving on. If you think of anything else let me know.

Could incorrectly connecting my ignition coils do something like this? I didn’t make the coil packs nor the wiring connections.

Also could bad valve cover gasket seating cause this kind of issue. It’s these kinds of mistakes in reassembly that I’m hoping to find.

Any idea if replacement is possible with engine installed? I desperately want to avoid pulling the engine out.

Welcome back:

I totally understand. I wouldn't want to pull it out either. You know, if the coils are wired wrong, that would make more sense than the timing since nothing was touched.

I attached two pictures below. One is bank 1 and the other bank 2. What you will have to do is one at a time, check that the correct wiring is going to each coil. I highlighted the wires that will be different and specific to each cylinder.

Check that and let me know.

Joe

Thanks Joe. I had a friend come look at it with me tonight. He found that there is extreme air pressure blowing out of the hose that hooks back into my air intake. Vapor return line, I sure what to call it. He, without knowing your response, thought it was a cracked piston or more likely a timing chain issue. He also suggested first step, check compression, second step timing belt. So I’m going to start easiest and work up. First I’ll check wiring of coils, then check compression, lastly will attempt the timing belt change.

Do you know if it can be done in vehicle? I assume so and some videos show it can be but it’s very difficult.

Regards,
Cody

Welcome back:

The chain can be done in vehicle. It's tight, but if you get things out of the way, it can work. I have no idea why you are getting a lot of pressure. Usually blow-by is caused by excessive ring / cylinder wear. I suspect you are referring to the PCV. See pictures below.

After you check things out, if you decide you are replacing the chains, let me know. Setting the VVT is a bit tricky. I attached a picture below. You'll see there are three chains. If you need directions, let me know if you need them all or just a specific one.

Take care and let me know what you find.

Joe

Correct it’s the PCV with a ton of blow back. I’ll be checking compression and coil wiring soon. The timing chain (if suspicions are confirmed) may have to wait, or go to my fathers garage as I have no garage and live in the Midwest (getting very cold).

Thanks so much for the great input. If I find good compression does that mean there isn’t excessive ring/cylinder wear? I assume good compression and my symptoms means I jumped timing and the blow back is because combustion is occurring at the wrong time.

**redacted**

Welcome back:

If there is good compression, the rings and timing are good.

Let me know what you find.

Joe

I’ve been sick for a bit but got back to work today. I found that the front bank (left) all have 30psi compression while the back (right) are all 125psi. To me this confirms I jumped the left timing chain and need to replace it. I have the parts in hand but the labor is going to take me a long time alone with no garage in the mid west.

Let me know if you agree with my direction based on this information. Thanks.

Welcome back:

Ugh! That isn't good news. Now for the next concern. This is an interference engine. Before you actually take it apart, check timing to confirm it's off. If it is, we may have additional problems.

If it is off, we have two choices. First, replace the chain and see if you have compression, or pull the valve cover and confirm valves are fully opening and closing. If it only a slight bit off, you may be safe. I'm just hoping you didn't bend any valves.

Let me know what you find or if you need additional information. I will watch for your reply. If you get that change, let me know what you find.

Joe

Just thinking out loud; wouldn’t it be very rare for it to be bent valves or anything like that given all three cylinders measure the same compression value? Doesn’t each cylinder have it on compression meaning if timing is off then there would be no compression in all three but likely the valves and pistons and rings are fine just out of phase right? Please help educate me as I begin doing the timing chain replacement. I bought the full kit with all of the tensioners chains sprockets etc.

Also you mentioned before taking it apart check timing. how can I check timing before doing that? Any guidance would be wonderful before I begin. thanks

Welcome back:

Okay, the one side has 30 psi. Now you made a good point. If a valve is bent and stuck open, you would have no compression. So, I suspect it is off time but not enough to bend anything. The 30 psi may be an indicator that the valves are not closing early enough or opening too soon. Thus, it can't build compression.

To check timing before you remove the chains, you will have to see if all the marks align, which may require several crankshaft rotations to happen. I am going to provide the directions for replacing the primary and secondary chains. Just fyi, this isn't going to be the easiest thing you have ever done. In fact, it can be frustrating.

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Here are the directions. I will break them down this way: Primary, Secondary Left, and Secondary Right. All attached pictures will correlate with the directions. Note: The secondary left must be installed before the right side.

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2007 Saturn Truck Outlook V6-3.6L
Primary Camshaft Drive Chain and Sprockets Replacement
Vehicle Engine, Cooling and Exhaust Engine Timing Components Timing Chain Service and Repair Removal and Replacement Primary Camshaft Drive Chain and Sprockets Replacement
PRIMARY CAMSHAFT DRIVE CHAIN AND SPROCKETS REPLACEMENT
PRIMARY CAMSHAFT DRIVE CHAIN AND SPROCKETS REPLACEMENT

Tools Required: EN 46111 Crankshaft Rotation Socket

Removal Procedure
1. Remove the engine front cover. See: Timing Cover > Removal and Replacement > Engine Front Cover Replacement

2. Remove the spark plugs in order to ease crankshaft/engine rotation. See: Spark Plug > Removal and Replacement

3. Remove the right bank secondary camshaft drive chain tensioner. See: Engine > Overhaul > 16. Secondary Camshaft Drive Chain Tensioner Removal - Right Side

4. Remove the right bank secondary camshaft drive chain shoe. See: Engine > Overhaul > 17. Secondary Camshaft Drive Chain Shoe Removal - Right Side

5. Remove the right bank secondary camshaft drive chain guide. See: Engine > Overhaul > 18. Secondary Camshaft Drive Chain Guide Removal - Right Side

6. Remove the right bank secondary camshaft drive chain. See: Engine > Overhaul > 19. Secondary Camshaft Drive Chain Removal - Right Side

7. Remove the primary camshaft drive chain tensioner. See: Engine > Overhaul > 20. Primary Camshaft Drive Chain Tensioner Removal

8. Remove the primary camshaft drive chain upper guide. See: Engine > Overhaul > 21. Primary Camshaft Drive Chain Guide Removal - Upper


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9. Remove the primary camshaft timing chain. See: Engine > Overhaul > 23. Primary Camshaft Drive Chain Removal


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10. Remove the crankshaft sprocket from the nose of the crankshaft.

Installation Procedure
1. Ensure the secondary timing chain is in the stage 1 timing position. See: Timing Component Alignment Marks > Components


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2. Ensure the crankshaft sprocket is installed with the timing mark (1) visible.


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3. Install the crankshaft sprocket on to the nose of the crankshaft.

4. Align the notch in the crankshaft sprocket with the pin in the crankshaft.

5. Slide the crankshaft sprocket on the crankshaft nose until the crankshaft sprocket contacts the step in the crankshaft.


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6. Ensure the crankshaft is in the stage one timing position with the crankshaft sprocket timing mark (1) aligned to the stage one timing mark on the oil pump cover (2) using the EN 46111. See: Timing Component Alignment Marks > Components


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7. Install the primary camshaft timing chain. See: Engine > Overhaul > 114. Primary Camshaft Drive Chain Installation

8. Install the primary upper camshaft drive chain guide. See: Engine > Overhaul > 116. Primary Camshaft Drive Chain Guide Installation - Upper

9. Install the primary camshaft drive chain tensioner. See: Engine > Overhaul > 117. Primary Camshaft Drive Chain Tensioner Installation

10. Install the right bank secondary camshaft drive chain. See: Engine > Overhaul > 118. Secondary Camshaft Drive Chain Installation - Right Side

11. Install the right bank secondary camshaft drive chain guide. See: Engine > Overhaul > 119. Secondary Camshaft Drive Chain Guide Installation - Right Side

12. Install the right bank secondary camshaft drive chain shoe. See: Engine > Overhaul > 120. Secondary Camshaft Drive Chain Shoe Installation - Right Side

13. Install the right bank secondary camshaft drive chain tensioner. See: Engine > Overhaul > 121. Secondary Camshaft Drive Chain Tensioner Installation - Right Side

14. Install the spark plugs. See: Spark Plug > Removal and Replacement

15. Install the engine front cover. See: Timing Cover > Removal and Replacement > Engine Front Cover Replacement

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Secondary Left

Secondary Camshaft Intermediate Drive Chain Replacement - Left
Vehicle Engine, Cooling and Exhaust Engine Timing Components Timing Chain Service and Repair Removal and Replacement Secondary Camshaft Intermediate Drive Chain Replacement - Left
SECONDARY CAMSHAFT INTERMEDIATE DRIVE CHAIN REPLACEMENT - LEFT
SECONDARY CAMSHAFT INTERMEDIATE DRIVE CHAIN REPLACEMENT - LEFT

Removal Procedure
1. Remove the engine front cover. See: Timing Cover > Removal and Replacement > Engine Front Cover Replacement

2. Remove the right bank secondary camshaft drive chain tensioner. See: Engine > Overhaul > 16. Secondary Camshaft Drive Chain Tensioner Removal - Right Side

3. Remove the right bank secondary camshaft drive chain shoe. See: Engine > Overhaul > 17. Secondary Camshaft Drive Chain Shoe Removal - Right Side

4. Remove the right bank secondary camshaft drive chain guide. See: Engine > Overhaul > 18. Secondary Camshaft Drive Chain Guide Removal - Right Side

5. Remove the right bank secondary camshaft drive chain. See: Engine > Overhaul > 19. Secondary Camshaft Drive Chain Removal - Right Side

6. Remove the primary camshaft drive chain tensioner. See: Engine > Overhaul > 20. Primary Camshaft Drive Chain Tensioner Removal

7. Remove the primary upper camshaft drive chain guide. See: Engine > Overhaul > 21. Primary Camshaft Drive Chain Guide Removal - Upper

8. Remove the primary camshaft drive chain. See: Engine > Overhaul > 23. Primary Camshaft Drive Chain Removal

9. Remove the right bank camshaft intermediate drive chain idler. See: Engine > Overhaul > 24. Camshaft Intermediate Drive Chain Idler Removal - Right Side

10. Remove the left bank secondary camshaft drive chain tensioner. See: Engine > Overhaul > 25. Secondary Camshaft Drive Chain Tensioner Removal - Left Side

11. Remove the left bank secondary camshaft drive chain shoe. See: Engine > Overhaul > 26. Secondary Camshaft Drive Chain Shoe Removal - Left Side

12. Remove the left bank secondary camshaft drive chain guide. See: Engine > Overhaul > 27. Secondary Camshaft Drive Chain Guide Removal - Left Side

13. Remove the left bank camshaft intermediate drive chain idler. See: Engine > Overhaul > 29. Camshaft Intermediate Drive Chain Idler Removal - Left Side


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14. Remove the left bank secondary camshaft drive chain. See: Engine > Overhaul > 28. Secondary Camshaft Drive Chain Removal - Left Side

15. Clean and inspect all of the camshaft timing drive components. Replace components as necessary. See: Engine > Overhaul > 64. Camshaft Timing Drive Components Cleaning and Inspection

Installation Procedure


pic 8



1. Install the left bank secondary camshaft drive chain. See: Engine > Overhaul > 109. Secondary Camshaft Drive Chain Installation - Left Side

2. Install the left bank camshaft intermediate drive chain idler. See: Engine > Overhaul > 108. Camshaft Intermediate Drive Chain Idler Installation - Left Side

3. Install the left bank secondary camshaft drive chain guide. See: Engine > Overhaul > 110. Secondary Camshaft Drive Chain Guide Installation - Left Side

4. Install the left bank secondary camshaft drive chain shoe. See: Engine > Overhaul > 111. Secondary Camshaft Drive Chain Shoe Installation - Left Side

5. Install the left bank secondary camshaft drive chain tensioner. See: Engine > Overhaul > 112. Secondary Camshaft Drive Chain Tensioner Installation - Left Side

6. Install the right bank camshaft intermediate drive chain idler. See: Engine > Overhaul > 113. Camshaft Intermediate Drive Chain Idler Installation - Right Side

7. Install the primary camshaft drive chain. See: Engine > Overhaul > 114. Primary Camshaft Drive Chain Installation

8. Install the primary upper camshaft drive chain guide. See: Engine > Overhaul > 116. Primary Camshaft Drive Chain Guide Installation - Upper

9. Install the primary camshaft drive chain tensioner. See: Engine > Overhaul > 117. Primary Camshaft Drive Chain Tensioner Installation

10. Install the right bank secondary camshaft drive chain. See: Engine > Overhaul > 118. Secondary Camshaft Drive Chain Installation - Right Side

11. Install the right bank secondary camshaft drive chain guide. See: Engine > Overhaul > 119. Secondary Camshaft Drive Chain Guide Installation - Right Side

12. Install the right bank secondary camshaft drive chain shoe. See: Engine > Overhaul > 120. Secondary Camshaft Drive Chain Shoe Installation - Right Side

13. Install the right bank secondary camshaft drive chain tensioner. See: Engine > Overhaul > 121. Secondary Camshaft Drive Chain Tensioner Installation - Right Side

14. Install the engine front cover. See: Timing Cover > Removal and Replacement > Engine Front Cover Replacement


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Secondary Right

2007 Saturn Truck Outlook V6-3.6L
Secondary Camshaft Intermediate Drive Chain Replacement - Right
Vehicle Engine, Cooling and Exhaust Engine Timing Components Timing Chain Service and Repair Removal and Replacement Secondary Camshaft Intermediate Drive Chain Replacement - Right
SECONDARY CAMSHAFT INTERMEDIATE DRIVE CHAIN REPLACEMENT - RIGHT
SECONDARY CAMSHAFT INTERMEDIATE DRIVE CHAIN REPLACEMENT - RIGHT SIDE

Removal Procedure
1. Remove the engine front cover. See: Timing Cover > Removal and Replacement > Engine Front Cover Replacement

2. Remove the spark plugs in order to ease crankshaft/engine rotation. See: Spark Plug > Removal and Replacement

3. Remove the right bank secondary camshaft drive chain tensioner. See: Engine > Overhaul > 16. Secondary Camshaft Drive Chain Tensioner Removal - Right Side

4. Remove the right bank secondary camshaft drive chain shoe. See: Engine > Overhaul > 17. Secondary Camshaft Drive Chain Shoe Removal - Right Side

5. Remove the right bank secondary camshaft drive chain guide. See: Engine > Overhaul > 18. Secondary Camshaft Drive Chain Guide Removal - Right Side

pic 9



6. Remove the right bank secondary camshaft drive chain. See: Engine > Overhaul > 19. Secondary Camshaft Drive Chain Removal - Right Side

Installation Procedure

1. Ensure the stage 1 camshaft timing is correct. See: Timing Component Alignment Marks > Components


pic 10



2. Install the right bank secondary camshaft drive chain. See: Engine > Overhaul > 118. Secondary Camshaft Drive Chain Installation - Right Side

3. Install the right bank secondary camshaft drive chain guide. See: Engine > Overhaul > 119. Secondary Camshaft Drive Chain Guide Installation - Right Side

4. Install the right bank secondary camshaft drive chain shoe. See: Engine > Overhaul > 120. Secondary Camshaft Drive Chain Shoe Installation - Right Side

5. Install the right bank secondary camshaft drive chain tensioner. See: Engine > Overhaul > 121. Secondary Camshaft Drive Chain Tensioner Installation - Right Side

6. Install the spark plugs. See: Spark Plug > Removal and Replacement

7. Install the engine front cover. See: Timing Cover > Removal and Replacement > Engine Front Cover Replacement

_____________________________________________________________________________

Here is timing mark information.

STAGE ONE


pic 11



1. Left Intake Camshaft Position Actuator Timing Mark - Circle
2. Left Intake Secondary Camshaft Timing Drive Chain Timing Link
3. Left Exhaust Secondary Camshaft Timing Drive Chain Timing Link
4. Left Exhaust Camshaft Position Actuator Timing Mark - Circle
5. Left Secondary Camshaft Timing Drive Chain
6. Primary Camshaft Drive Chain Timing Link for the Left Primary Camshaft Intermediate Drive Chain Sprocket
7. Left Primary Camshaft Intermediate Drive Chain Sprocket Timing Mark for the Primary Camshaft Drive Chain
8. Left Primary Camshaft Intermediate Drive Chain Sprocket
9. Left Secondary Camshaft Timing Drive Chain Timing Link for the Left Primary Camshaft Intermediate Drive Chain Sprocket, behind hole in sprocket
10. Left Primary Camshaft Intermediate Drive Chain Sprocket Timing Window for the Left Secondary Camshaft Timing Drive Chain Timing Link
11. Primary Camshaft Drive Chain
12. Primary Camshaft Drive Chain Timing Link for the Crankshaft Sprocket
13. Crankshaft Sprocket Timing Mark
14. Crankshaft Sprocket
15. Right Primary Camshaft Intermediate Drive Chain Sprocket
16. Primary Camshaft Drive Chain Timing Link for the Right Primary Camshaft Intermediate Drive Chain Sprocket
17. Right Primary Camshaft Intermediate Drive Chain Sprocket Timing Mark

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Pic 12


1. Left Intake Camshaft Position Actuator Timing Mark - Circle
2. Left Intake Secondary Camshaft Timing Drive Chain Timing Link
3. Left Exhaust Secondary Camshaft Timing Drive Chain Timing Link
4. Left Exhaust Camshaft Position Actuator Timing Mark - Circle
5. Left Secondary Camshaft Timing Drive Chain
6. Primary Camshaft Drive Chain Timing Link for the Left Primary Camshaft Intermediate Drive Chain Sprocket
7. Left Primary Camshaft Intermediate Drive Chain Sprocket Timing Mark for the Primary Camshaft Drive Chain
8. Left Primary Camshaft Intermediate Drive Chain Sprocket
9. Left Secondary Camshaft Timing Drive Chain Timing Link for the Left Primary Camshaft Intermediate Drive Chain Sprocket, behind hole in sprocket
10. Left Primary Camshaft Intermediate Drive Chain Sprocket Timing Window
11. Primary Camshaft Drive Chain
12. Primary Camshaft Drive Chain Timing Link for the Crankshaft Sprocket
13. Crankshaft Sprocket Timing Mark
14. Crankshaft Sprocket
15. Right Primary Camshaft Intermediate Drive Chain Sprocket
16. Primary Camshaft Drive Chain Timing Link for the Right Primary Camshaft Intermediate Drive Chain Sprocket
17. Right Primary Camshaft Intermediate Drive Chain Sprocket Timing Mark for the Primary Camshaft Drive Chain
18. Right Primary Camshaft Intermediate Drive Chain Sprocket Timing Mark/Window for the Right Secondary Camshaft Timing Drive Chain
19. Right Secondary Camshaft Timing Drive Chain Timing Link for the Right Primary Camshaft Intermediate Drive Chain Sprocket
20. Right Secondary Camshaft Timing Drive Chain
21. Right Exhaust Camshaft Position Actuator Timing Mark - Triangle
22. Right Exhaust Secondary Camshaft Timing Drive Chain Timing Link
23. Right Intake Secondary Camshaft Timing Drive Chain Timing Link
24. Right Intake Camshaft Position Actuator Timing Mark - Triangle

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Camshaft Position Actuator Timing Marks
CAMSHAFT POSITION ACTUATOR TIMING MARKS


pic 13



1. Right Intake Camshaft Position Actuator Identifier
2. Right Intake Camshaft Position Actuator Right Side Timing Mark - Triangle
3. Left Intake Camshaft Position Actuator Left Side Timing Mark - Circle
4. Left Intake Camshaft Position Actuator Identifier
5. Exhaust Camshaft Position Actuator Identifier
6. Exhaust Camshaft Position Actuator Right Side Timing Mark - Triangle
7. Exhaust Camshaft Position Actuator Left Side Timing Mark - Circle

________________________________________

Let me know if this helps.

Joe

So I got the valve covers off and the left bank timing chain is visibly loose (see picture and video attempted attachments). The interesting part from my OP is when I replaced the valve cover gaskets last month I made note of the timing chains both being nice and tight with no apparent issues from the top. I’m curious how after that repair on seemingly the first crank it could go so south. Is there something I should be worried I damaged in the first repair? Anything I should keep my eye out for as I get the timing cover off?

Welcome back:

That is extremely loose. Wow! I can honestly say that I can't think of anything you would have done by removing the valve cover. The cover you replaced has nothing directly associated with the chain.

The tensioner is hydraulically actuated. If there is an oil pressure issue, I guess it could have failed, but unlikely.

I attached a picture of the tensioner shoe and tensioner. It's well below where you would have been working. I can't see what you could have done to cause this.

Let me know if I can help.

Take care,
Joe

Thanks Joe. I made great progress today. Almost have the engine cover off. Struggling with the engine pulley (main output?) and the water pump pulley. Any advice welcome. Also, the pulley just forward (so to front of car in my model, just further left of engine orientation) of the belt tensioner arm is impossible to remove in my model. What I mean to say is the bolt is too long and contacts the body before fully out. I looked up the service instructions and it says “No instructions for this model” when I click the hyperlink for that step... in stumped. May have to get creative with a dremel tool...

So the service instructions for the Crankshaft Balancer removal include a EN 46106 special tool installed where the starter is, I don't have an air impact gun, any advice? Also is it reverse thread or normal?

Secondly the Water Pump Pulley removal references a special tool EN 46104. Any clue how I can do this without this tool or where I can borrow one from? I'm stumped.

Both tools are designed to retain a component so you can loosen a bolt. The first one which goes where the starter is located basically prevents the flywheel from turning. If you have no air impact, to get the bolt loosened, get a good 6 point socket and put a breaker bar on it. Smack it with a hammer a few times and it should break loose. At that point, you should be able to remove it. The next problem will be tightening everything.

As far as the bolt, it is a standard left handed thread. Counterclockwise to remove it. Also, often times you can rent the correct tools from a parts store.

Let me know if that helps.

Take care,
Joe

I got both off. Tomorrow I’ll have the cover off and timing chains replaced. Any advice on making sure I put them on right with proper timing?

Also any advice on what else to replace while I’m this far in? Like water pump for example.

How have you been? As far as timing marks, take a look through the long prior post I sent. It has all the directions for all three chains.

Since you have it apart, inspect guides, tensioners. As far as the water pump, if it's not leaking or there are no issues with it, I would reuse the one you have. At least it isn't driven by the timing chain, so if you need to replaced it, not everything needs to come apart.

Let me know how things work out for you.

Joe

Great point. Thanks. I’ve been well all things considered. It’s been light snowing here and temperatures under 40F... so tough to work a bit outside. But I have everything off. I did see and will reference the timing marks. Just not sure if I need to know anything special since the timing is actively off on the left bank. I’m sure the marks will make everything good to go.

Also, I ripped the end off one of the VVT solenoids during removal. Is it okay to just replace one or should I hit all 4, just looking for opinion. Thanks again for the conversation and guidance.

Always remember the old saying, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." LOL Just replace the broken one. As far as timing, if you follow the directions, they explain everything. You will be fine. Also, we have been getting light snow and below 40 temps. Are you near Pittsburgh?

Nah. I’m in Michigan. Thanks again for the great input and assistance. I greatly appreciate it.

For when I am moving from phase 1 to phase 2 timing positions how should I turn the engine? The videos I see on Cloyes does not seem to be using the crankshaft do not sure what they are turning and want to be safe.

First, you are very welcome. We're not too far apart. LOL As far as turning the engine, use the crank. There isn't anything else. I'm not sure what they are showing.

Take care and let me know how things go for you.

Joe

I am in need of some urgent guidance. I went through the instructions to remove the timing chains. Spark plugs out already etc. I felt some resistance when moving to stage 1 timing. I also heard clicking as I moved from stage 2 (8 o’clock) to 1 (4 o’clock). I am almost certain my left bank camshafts are out of position. So I can’t just install the new timing as they are off right? How do I know what position to clock the cam phasers to?

Hi:

Have you aligned the in accordance to the directions I sent you? Also, where it the clicking coming from? Are you concerned there is an internal contact issue?

Let me know. It's late here (11:30) but I will hang around for another half hour to see if you receive this.

Joe

Update, talked to some mechanic friends of mine, I believe the clicking I’m hearing is either the VVT phasers as I rotated the engine (all chains connected) from phase 1 to 2 timing as part of the procedure. After I had all chains off I realized the left bank (issue in this case) was not aligned to the service procedure positioning. When I tried to move them there was much resistance so I worried there were valve contact. So I reconnected the primary and right bank chains (tensioners guides etc) and rotates them a little, tried adjusting the left bank and repeat. Trying to get the valves clear to clock the left bank to where it needs to be. When I was finally able to get it to go I applied more pressure than before and realized the resistance I was feeling I believe it as just the spring force of the rocker arms. Once I rotated enough the cam(s) sprung into the next position which then aligned perfectly to the instructions.

To answer your question, yes I have been following the instructions provided and the ones I have (same instructions) to the T. Pausing to check them and think about my next move. At this point I’m ready to install new timing kit and begin re-assembly however there is 5-8” of snow coming today which I have off for Veterans Day.. just my luck. Will have to wait until it melts to get back at it... ahh the Midwest in November.

Glad to hear it was aligned. Yes, the lifters will certainly cause resistance.

Did you say snow? Keep it up there! Actually, they are calling for it here tomorrow. Ugh!!! It's time to move south.

Take care and keep me in the loop.

Joe

Hey Joe,

I'm back with a status update. I finished the timing chain portion of the job. I had to install, uninstall and reinstall many times to ensure they were correct. Had a few chain tensioners not wanting to actually deploy when I removed the pin. I have all that good to go now with marks lined up perfectly.

Now I need to re-install the front engine cover. Question(s): What should I replace while I am doing this? What seals and rings etc? Also the instructions call for an EN 46109 guide pins to install the engine cover but can't find those anywhere. Any input welcome, thanks.

Welcome back.

I would recommend replacing all o-rings and of course, the gasket itself which most likely had an RTV gasket. At this point, replace the crank seal as well.

As far as the guide pin set you are referring to, it is a tool. Type in the exact part number you indicated and it will bring up what you are looking for. You can get them just about anywhere.

Copy and paste the following in a google search. EN 46109 Guide Pin Set

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Here are the specifics for replacing the cover:

2007 Saturn Truck Outlook V6-3.6L
122. Engine Front Cover Installation
Vehicle Engine, Cooling and Exhaust Engine Service and Repair Overhaul Unit Repair 07 Outlook 3.6L Repair Instructions 122. Engine Front Cover Installation
122. ENGINE FRONT COVER INSTALLATION
Engine Front Cover Installation

Tools Required

EN 46109 Guide Pins


pic 1

1. Install the 8 mm (0.315 in) guide from the EN 46109 into the cylinder block positions as shown.


pic 2

2. Install the NEW engine front cover to cylinder block seal.


pic 3

3. Place a 3 mm (0.118 in) bead of RTV sealant, GM P/N 12378521 (Canadian P/N 88901148) or equivalent, on the engine front cover as shown (1).


pic 4

4. Place the engine front cover onto the EN 46109 and slide into position.
5. Remove the EN 46109 from the cylinder block.


pic 5

6. Install the engine front cover deadener.


pic 6


Notice: Refer to Fastener Notice

7. Loosely install the engine front cover bolts to hold the engine front cover deadener into position.


pic 7

8. Loosely install the remaining engine front cover bolts.


pic 8

9. Tighten the engine front cover bolts in the sequence shown (1-22).

Tighten the engine front cover bolts in the sequence to 23 N.m (17 lb ft).


pic 9

10. Place the camshaft position actuator valves in position on the front cover.
11. Install the camshaft position actuator valve bolts.

Tighten the camshaft position actuator valve bolts to 10 N.m (89 lb in).


pic 10

12. Install NEW O-rings on the camshaft position sensor.
13. Place the camshaft position sensors in position on the front cover.
14. Install the camshaft position sensor bolts.

Tighten the camshaft position sensor bolts to 10 N.m (89 lb in).


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Let me know if this answers your questions.

Take care and let me know the outcome. If I don't hear from you, have a nice Thanksgiving.

Joe

So for better or worse I installed the front engine cover without the guide pins and it went very well. I practiced the install 'dry' many times to ensure the RTV didn't get messed up. I replaced the water pump seal but didn't replace the crank shaft seal. I have most everything re-installed and found frayed wires on 2 of the 4 timing solenoids... Very difficult to find but I am working on it.

Is it safe to check compression with 2 timing solenoids unplugged? I really want to get an idea if the repair fixed the compression issue on the left bank.

I probably will wait anyway, gonna replace the belt as the old one is dry and cracked. I am concerned that I didn't get enough torque on the crankshaft pulley bolt because I have no holder tool, I got it tight to the point of spinning the crank and then hit it with my electric impact driver..

Just a general status update, thanks again for everything. Happy Thanksgiving.

If you hit it with an impact, it should be fine. As far as the compression, yes you can check it. Let me know the results.

Happy Thanksgiving! (Kind of, read on). So I finally finished re-assembly of everything and ran the compression test and no change! 31psi across left bank. Right bank actually got better at 150 each. Any chance this is explained at all by not firing it up yet? Any chance if I try to start it with fuel and coil packs it will change? Pretty sure the answer is no and I’m out $800.00 and massive amount of my time, blood and sweat. Please let me know what is the logical next step. Am I going to be taking the head off this thing? Is this engine not worth the money, I’m very upset and ruined my Thanksgiving, I hoped to have the opposite effect.

Hope you have a good Thanksgiving and get back to me when able. Thanks.

Additionally, I quadruple verified the positioning of the camshaft phasers, sprockets and crankshaft when I assembled everything. Would this point to a camshaft issue potentially?

Hi,

It's time to remove the head. If you are certain the timing is right (and it sounds like you are) something is causing that entire bank to lave low compression. A bad cam shaft won't cause low compression unless it isn't turning and allowing valves to stay partially open. What is confusing to me is why they are all at 30 and don't change. Something isn't adding up. If there was a bent valve, worn rings, damaged piston, it would be one specific cylinder. This is all 3 cylinders on one bank. It's almost like the head gasket has failed and is affecting all cylinders.

I hate to say it, but the head has to come off. Is it worth the time and effort? There is only one way to know. Remove the head and see what is happening or causing it. At that point, we will determine if the engine is worth putting money into.

I do have one other thought. Is there any way you could get your hands on a scope which is designed to see into areas such as cylinders? I don;t know if a parts store would lend or rent one, but perhaps you would be able to see what is happening without taking the head off. At least it would save you time. It's just a thought.

Try to have a good Thanksgiving, whats left of it. Car's will always be there to drive you crazy.

Joe

Thanks for the feedback. Is there one single head gasket or one per bank? I’m unfamiliar with this level of engine detail. I have a friend who likely has a scope I could borrow and will ask. What would I be looking for? Putting the scope in and seeing if there is light bleed from the outside? Just trying to get an idea of what I’d do with the scope.

I assumed the head has to come off. Issue now is being December in a few days I can’t do this in my driveway as I’ll have steady snow soon and can’t expose the engine to that. Making this choice more difficult. My father has a large heated shop but is a 30 min drive so I’ve avoided taking it there as it will drastically slow my already snail like progress. Anyway just mentioning this because my updates will likely slow as well...

Each bank has its own head gasket. By putting the scope into each cylinder, you can tell if there has been damage to cylinder walls, the tops of the pistons, valves and so on. If everything looks good, then we have to remove the head to see if it is a gasket related issue. The scope is to help you determine if it is worth taking things apart or just replacing the engine.

Please feel free to let me know if you have questions. Also, when you do the checks, upload pics for me to see as well (if you can).

Joe

I’m halfway through the disassembly, it doesn’t make sense for me to wait to get the scope before getting in there so that’s my plan. I will take pictures of the valves, head, gasket etc., for your consultation on next steps. Thanks.

Do you know if the injector bank (maybe called lower plenum?) needs to come off to get the head off?