Fuel pressure

Tiny
SHAUGE
  • MEMBER
  • 1994 JEEP GRAND CHEROKEE
  • 4.0L
  • 6 CYL
  • 4WD
  • AUTOMATIC
  • 205,000 MILES
Losing pressure in fuel line when car is off. Have to wait with key in 'on' position for fuel pump to kick in and prime, then the truck starts. The wait time varies from one minute to over five minutes when the weather is cold. I have replaced the fuel pump, the fuel regulator at the rail, ASD and fuel pump relays, but problem persists. No obvious leaks along the fuel lines. Once running, the truck runs great-no stalling or rough idle. It has an inline six engine. Why am I losing pressure? That is the number one question. But, another question is why does the not pump prime immediately when it senses no pressure?
Thursday, September 7th, 2017 AT 8:06 AM

9 Replies

Tiny
CARADIODOC
  • MECHANIC
  • 33,871 POSTS
Pressure is not monitored and has nothing to do with when the fuel pump runs. It runs for one second when the ignition switch is turned on, then not again until the engine computer sees engine rotation, (cranking or running). You can sit there all day with the ignition switch on, but the pump will have only run for that initial one second.

You replaced the two least likely parts to cause fuel pressure to bleed down and overlooked the most common cause. That is a leaking injector. To prove the regulator is not leaking, use a hose pinch-off pliers to pinch the rubber fuel return line where it goes from the fuel rail to the steel line on the body. I have never heard of a regulator leaking on a Chrysler product, but if it did, pinching that hose would maintain pressure in the system.

You can also pinch the fuel supply line once the engine is stopped. If that maintains the pressure, suspect the check valve in the pump. I have never run into that. The best way to find a leaking injector is to remove them still attached to the fuel rail. Turn the ignition switch on, then off, then watch to see which injector gets wet on its tip.

The long crank time is due to the battery voltage is drawn down by the starter during cranking, and that lower voltage causes the fuel pump to run slower than normal. Add to that, the injectors are spraying fuel almost as fast as the pump is supplying it. It takes a long time at that rate for the pressure to build up enough to where the engine will run. A trick to overcome that is to turn the ignition switch on, wait a few seconds, turn the switch off, wait about five seconds, turn it on again, and maybe do that a third time, then crank the engine. The pump will have run two or three seconds which is enough to get the fuel pressure high enough for the engine to run.
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Thursday, September 7th, 2017 AT 2:48 PM
Tiny
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Hello! I thought I'd give you an update on my Jeep. When I read your reply to my question it made sense. I had been focused at the tank and the regulator, but didn't consider the end of the fuel line, at the rail. So I took your advice and changed all 6 fuel injectors. I'm guessing the old ones were original equipment, and I figured there was a good possibility one or more might be leaking. It's a straight forward job on the 4.0 and it went smoothly. Unfortunately it did not solve the starting problem. UGH! That replacement cost me over $300. I still have to turn the key to the on position, wait (sometimes quite long) before it will start.

I know you don't think my wait is for the fuel pump because you said the pump activates for a second at the point of turning the key on, and then not again until the computer sees engine rotation. If this is true, then what is the sound I hear from the rear of the car when the key is on? It's a 2-3 second little growl, and when I hear it, I turn the car to off, then crank it and it starts. Every time. But the car will NOT start if I don't do that. When I watch the dashboard while I wait, right before I hear the growl the security light will go on, followed by the check engine light, then the growl. Turn it off then turn it over and I'm running.

Stay with me guys, this one is a challenge, and I need expert advice. Any other ideas?
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Monday, September 11th, 2017 AT 7:43 PM
Tiny
KEN L
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I would attach a fuel pressure gauge to see if the fuel pressure is that problem. Here is a guide to show you how.

https://www.2carpros.com/articles/how-to-check-fuel-system-pressure-and-regulator

We could be chasing up the wrong tree. If you don't have a gauge you can rent one for free at the auto parts store.

Please let us know what you find.

Cheers, Ken
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Tuesday, September 12th, 2017 AT 12:49 PM
Tiny
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Hi Ken,

Here's the next installment in our mystery. I did as you suggested: rented a gauge at O'Reilly and did the test according to your guide. Before doing anything I took the vacuum hose off the regulator and checked for gas. None was found. I put the vacuum hose back on and connected the gauge to the rail, noting that before turning the key to on, the gauge read zero. (NOTE: I had used the car about 4 hours earlier). I then turned the ignition to ON and waited. No pressure. I then did the turn-on/turn-off method about 10 times. Still no pressure reading. I then did my typical turn-on-and-wait method. After several minutes I heard the growl as usual, the pressure went up to 31psi (perfectly in spec) and I cranked the engine and it started.

I let it idle for a few minutes and the pressure stayed constant. I then turned the engine off and watched the gauge. The pressure immediately and slowly dropped all the way to zero. Took about 45-60 seconds.

I still have the gauge. Is there anything else to try while I still have it?

Thanks for hound-dogging this. There will be a donation if we get to the bottom of it! :-)

Steven
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Wednesday, September 13th, 2017 AT 12:59 PM
Tiny
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I have another clue for you. The guy at O'Reilly asked me if the fuel pump was grounded, because maybe it was an electrical issue. I didn't know so after I emailed you I went back out to the truck and got under it to trace the electrical. I had turned the ignition to ON before crawling under, and while I was there, the familiar 'growl' happened, but to my surprise, it DID NOT come from the fuel tank/pump, but somewhere mid to front front, maybe passenger side. This is new information, and different from what I"ve been telling you. Googling this problem and reading a lot of forum strands, it seems that other jeep owners have traced similar problems to the security system. Cound this be my problem? Is that sound some kind of relay kicking in? What else could be making that sound? And it never fails, when I hear that little growl, the truck will start.
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Wednesday, September 13th, 2017 AT 2:23 PM
Tiny
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Some vehicles have automatic rear height adjusting, and those pumps can be quite noisy. Anti-lock Brake system pumps can usually be heard when the engine is not running, although typically when they need to turn on, they run for 10 to 20 seconds.

It sounds like you have two problems. Fuel pressure should hold for weeks. You're losing pressure very quickly, and your pump isn't running when it should be. First pinch off the fuel return hose where it is rubber between the fuel rail and the body. If the pressure no longer bleeds down, pull out the regulator and look at the smaller rubber o-ring on the tube. I've had two of those that were cut resulting in long crank times. One was on a customer's car and one was on a brand new one in the showroom.

For the dead fuel pump, check if you're also missing spark. Then, check if the automatic shutdown, (ASD) relay is turning on during cranking. The fastest way to do that is to use a test light to measure the voltage that feeds that circuit. Look for the wire that is the same color at every injector, commonly a dark green / orange wire. Back-probe that wire at any injector or the ignition coil. Digital voltmeters don't respond fast enough, so use a test light if you have one. You should see it light up for one second when you turn on the ignition switch. If it does, it must turn on steady during cranking.
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Wednesday, September 13th, 2017 AT 4:35 PM
Tiny
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Hello and thank you for the reply. Once I realized that the relays were involved, I repeated the starting steps, holding my fingers on the Fuel Pump and ASD relays to see if either or both of those are the ones vibrating. It turned out to be both. Since I had replaced those last winter, and they DO kick in after the waiting period, I figured it's not a relay problem but must be something related to them. After further internet searching and forum research, using 'clicking sound from fuel pump relay" as my search, the exact symptoms that I've been describing began popping up in the forum topics. The majority of these attributed the problem to the ECM, and a typical Jeep problem with three specific capacitors that get loose over time. I'm convinced this is my problem, given all the other things I've already tried and the age of my truck.

The first thing I will do is clean the grounds around the engine compartment. Any advice you can give me on that would be appreciated (I can't find the one that is apparently on or near the fire wall). If that doesn't fix the problem, the decision I will be faced with is do I try to fix (resolder the capacitors), or fork out $250+- for a warrantied rebuilt ECM. I'm not a soldering guy, and don't really want to learn.

Thanks guys,

S
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Thursday, September 14th, 2017 AT 6:58 AM
Tiny
KEN L
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I was going to say I think the ECM is bad so its great we came to that conclusion together. I would try to find a used one BTW.

Please let us know what happens so it will help others.

Cheers, Ken
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Thursday, September 14th, 2017 AT 10:33 AM
Tiny
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If you know how to identify a broken solder connection, and you find one, look for a local tv repair shop, if there's still one around that wasn't run out of business by the manufacturers. Bad solder connections account for at least half of their repair business. The problem I think you're going to be faced with is these boards are usually sealed in a gel material that is hard to see through. I've ground some of that stuff off to solder on wires and create breaks to build "bugs" for my students to diagnose. Ford computer boards are not sealed against moisture like that, so they're easier to break, but I built mostly Chrysler trainers because they donated a lot of cars to our school when they were done with their dealer training on them.
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Thursday, September 14th, 2017 AT 8:41 PM

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