Front crankshaft seal leak?

Tiny
WHITE99587
  • MEMBER
  • 2006 TOYOTA SIENNA
  • 3.3L
  • V6
  • 2WD
  • AUTOMATIC
  • 286,000 MILES
Developed sever oil leak at front of engine about a month ago. Until then, the engine used about 3/4 of a quart at oil change interval. The engine has received regular oil and (almost always) a new filter at each oil change. Have used almost exclusively Valvoline 5W-30 Full Synthetic, Hugh Mileage. The water pump, timing belt, pulley, tensioner changed about 3 years ago. The water pump was not leaking at that time. Belts, particularly the timing belt, clearly needed to be changed. This oil leak, particularly this extreme, just recently occurred with no particular indication. Just a wet spot under vehicle then of course on the frame. Removed and replaced the crankshaft and camshaft seals, though there was no indication of leaking from the camshaft seals. Visual inspection of and feeling the crankshaft did not observe or feel any grooves or scratches on the shaft. However, after reassembling and running the engine and vehicle showed oil under the vehicle after sitting overnight. I took the engine down again. After removing the harmonic dampener, I could not see an oil leak around the seal seat or around the crankshaft seal. I went ahead and removed the (otherwise” new seal and again no obvious leak point. I inspected the crankshaft seat more closely but also tried using the phone camera for better visual observation. There appears that there indeed is a wear ring and possible scratching/small grooves. But I couldn’t really feel them. It will be difficult to polish the shaft with emery cloth, but I suppose possible. However, since seal sleeves appear to be available for the crankshaft, rear and the camshaft I am wondering why not for the crankshaft, front? Or is there? Or of course, other options. I tried attaching two photos but didn’t see them.
Thursday, August 24th, 2023 AT 9:39 PM

13 Replies

Tiny
KEN L
  • MASTER CERTIFIED MECHANIC
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Try to upload the images again and allow them to load before clicking submit. Did you say you could not see a leak from the seal? Could it be leaking from the oil pan or oil pump gasket? Please check out this guide and the images below.

https://www.2carpros.com/articles/engine-is-leaking-oil

Check out the images (below). Let us know what happens and please upload pictures or videos of the problem so we can see what's going on.

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Friday, August 25th, 2023 AT 12:20 PM
Tiny
WHITE99587
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Left - Bottom of shaft. Right - top of shaft.
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Friday, August 25th, 2023 AT 3:34 PM
Tiny
KEN L
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Thanks for the images, it does seem like there is a groove. I would polish it up the best I could with emery paper and give it a go.
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Saturday, August 26th, 2023 AT 11:32 AM
Tiny
WHITE99587
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Thank you, Ken.
The appearance of polishing the shaft where the seal made contact and possible small scratches is way more visible in the photo than what I could see insitu. Still, I could not feel any indentations or scratches. But there isn’t very much space to actually feel the shaft.
Having said that, the replacement seal appeared to leak too, just not as much and I’m pretty sure it was not remnant or residual oil. Obviously, it’s next to impossible to see an active leak with the harmonic balancer and belts reinstalled. I would prefer to not do that again with a new seal. So, other than looking for answers that I might not have considered, that is why it seemed plausible to use a repair (speedi-sleeve) to increase the diameter of the shaft and necessarily tighten the fit of a new seal. That is why I asked the question on this website. Clearly if there were defects. A resolution is pretty clear but even if there was a defect, (at least what I found or couldn’t find) market and literate plus contact with 3 different Toyota Service advisers and parts departments is that although there are repair sleeves for the crankshaft and the crankshaft but only for the rear of that engine but not for the crankshaft - front.
Why/why not?
Thought it couldn’t/wouldn’t hurt to install one but maybe there is a reason to not install one.

Do you know?

While in town, I went to a bearing supply store and got a SKG speedi-sleeve based on my rather limited measuring access and the published seal specs. Now have to decide whether to install the (second) new seal, emery the shaft and install, or install the speedi-sleeve and then new seal.
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Saturday, August 26th, 2023 AT 12:05 PM
Tiny
KEN L
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Good job finding the sleeve, it is a tough decision I have only seen a handful of sleeves in my life, but they seem to work. Let me know if it works.
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Sunday, August 27th, 2023 AT 9:36 AM
Tiny
WHITE99587
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Actually, finding the sleeve was easy. That they had one of the (what appears to be the likely) correct size) and. Have it in the stock and reasonable price AND returnable if I decide to not use it is the amazing part.

I finally tried 2CarPros because I wanted to assure myself of the appropriateness of using a sleeve on this particular shaft since my (although quite limited) search could only find sleeves for the other engine shafts and NOT for this one so, it seems natural to question why. I guess that I haven't reached into Toyota technical services (or and experienced Toyota mechanic) far enough. Certainly, to me, the three dealerships (service advisor level) that I called couldn't answer me. One refered me to a somewhat local machine shop (reputable - engine rebuild) who, when I called, the owner said that he didn't work on those (Toyota) engines. Another service advisor had enough presense of mind to think of an actual mechanic (in their shop) but did not want to take him or her off of the job they were on to discuss it, which of course I understand.

So, I still don't have that answer.

In this particular case, it doesn't seem to be needed, on the other hand, one replacement seal also appeared to be leaking after it was installed to replace the original seal.
Thus, if installed (properly) it would seem to me that all that would happen is that the seal would be "tighter" than without the sleeve and if sanded down any more (because I have done a little) it should result in the same condition.

The original leak observed was the apparent classical leak for this engine with the appearance of oil on the underside of the front of the engine, below the crankshaft spreading over the power steering pump.

The apparent leak after the new seals were installed was only under one of the frame. On the pad and after removing the harmonic balancer, I could not see any free oil in that area, around inside or outside diameter of the seal and I had degreased and washed the engine before working on it originally and had cleaned the area before installing the seals (as you should have been able to see in the photos) so I didn't think it was residual oil from the first leak.
At any rate, thanks for answering and yes, either way, I'll let you know how it turned out with or without the sleeve.
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Sunday, August 27th, 2023 AT 11:35 AM
Tiny
KEN L
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Thank you.
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Monday, August 28th, 2023 AT 9:48 AM
Tiny
WHITE99587
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I have tried 4 times to upload a rather large video file which tended to show, because of better focus, that there may be a wear groove in the shaft, but I couldn't feel it. On the other hand, that groove is inside the engine case and shaft with an opening of about 1/4" so I really can't even get even my small finger in that far. I'm about to get back in it so I'll look again and decide then. Thank you again for responding.
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Monday, August 28th, 2023 AT 2:52 PM
Tiny
KEN L
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Large videos can be tough, they upload slowly over the phone, let me know how it goes.
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Tuesday, August 29th, 2023 AT 10:10 AM
Tiny
WHITE99587
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It took a while to complete the installation of the sleeve, but it is done and appears to be working. I'll know this morning when I go check under the car. Drove it some 80 or 90 miles yesterday. A bit of a refresher and update. The reason I ended up coming online to 2CarPros was that I couldn't find an answer to what I thought was a simple and basic question; Why was there no indicated repair sleeve for a shaft, in this case the crankshaft, front when there are sleeves called out for the camshafts and crankshaft - rear. Made sense to me that it was about as likely to have a wear/leak issue with the one as the other three. So to be sure that that there was or wasn't a reason to install a sleeve and of course fine an appropriate one, I asked three Toyota Service reps, three independent shop mechanics, including one that is pretty prominent on YouTube (which I enjoy watching and appreciate his presentation) and I think five supply houses for parts (sleeves). The Service Reps (I didn't try to get past them to an actual mechanic, which may have produced a different answer, but that appears doubtful and independent shops didn't know of any or in the case of the Toyota Service Reps had not heard of it being done.
I used my camera to get a better visual indication of the shaft wear surface and could see what appeared to be indentations although I couldn't really feel them even with a "pick", and there wasn't enough room to measure with calipers, dial indicators, or anything I had available. And to add a bit of a positive reason to use the sleeve was that I had (after already emerying the shaft down) installed a new seal (along with the camshaft seals but ended up with a leak. A pretty small leak, certainly smaller than the failed seal and maybe an acceptable level by older model Toyota 3.3 standards, but more than I wanted so I took it apart again and this is the result. So, the sleeve is in and the engine back together and roughly 100 miles run and no apparent leak. So, yes, it appears the sleeve is viable. Also, I did notice on Parts Geek. Com that they identify a sleeve for the timing belt cover - yes, the cover doesn't need a sleeve, it's a cover. The online help, Nicola ("you can call me Nico") when queried if it really was for the crankshaft-front and after waiting for him to check further came back with the rather un-remarkable answer it was above his level of knowledge or ability (or something like that). I assume that it was AI (absolute idiot). But of course, no useful answer. I'll try to load two images of the shaft to this long story. The sleeve I got was an SKF sleeve but it was just a bit too deep and struck out about 3/16" past the shaft face that the harmonic balancer was pulled back on to with the bolt so I had to cut that off and the only tool that I had that would fit in that small of a space was an electric die grinder with carbide round cone type bit. The grinder runs at 10,000 RPMs the bit was way to coarse. So, it roughed up the sleeve edges and even hit the shaft a bit with required the emery cloth again. But it didn't affect the wear surface.
Thank you again, Ken L, for your responses.
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Friday, September 8th, 2023 AT 12:12 PM
Tiny
KEN L
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You have done your research on this, good job on the fix, the end of the crankshaft looks a little beat up so make sure the balancer bolt is tight because it looks like it was loose at one point? Thanks for following through on this, it will help many people.
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Saturday, September 9th, 2023 AT 9:36 AM
Tiny
WHITE99587
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It is "beaten up" because of all I had to remove the excess sleeve was a die grinder with a way too coarse cone bit. But I removed the excess for the entire perimeter of the crankshaft, used emery cloth to smooth the shaft (so it would go all the back to the face of the shaft, then torqued it to 162 ft-lbs.
Ran my finger around the end to be sure the sleeve wasn't extended beyond the shaft face before reinstalling the harmonic balancer.
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Saturday, September 9th, 2023 AT 10:00 AM
Tiny
KEN L
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Okay, sounds good, it looks like you have fixed it the best it can be. Thanks for letting us know, we are here to help, please use 2CarPros anytime.
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Monday, September 11th, 2023 AT 10:42 AM

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