Stalls at idle

Tiny
JOHN LUYMES
  • MEMBER
  • 2011 DODGE VAN
  • 3.6L
  • 6 CYL
  • 2WD
  • AUTOMATIC
  • 90,000 MILES
Hello: My daughter's and son-in-law's 2011 Dodge Grand Caravan will occasionally stop running a second or two after it is started. Sometimes a second or third try is needed and once it is running, it has been fine. So far it has not left them and three small children stranded but the worry that it might is always in the background. I am curious whether you have come across this intermittent problem and whether any preventative measures can be taken. I'm thinking it may be a fuel relay or pump issue but the problem is too sporadic to identify it as such. No engine codes are registered on my simple code reader. Thanks. John Luymes.
Wednesday, October 23rd, 2019 AT 2:45 PM

21 Replies

Tiny
CARADIODOC
  • MECHANIC
  • 33,867 POSTS
There's two things to consider. The first is if idle speed is too low. This will happen when the battery is disconnected for some other service. The Engine Computer loses all its stored data. Most of that is relearned as soon as you start driving, without you even noticing, except for "minimum throttle". Until that is relearned, idle speed will be too low, the engine may not start unless the accelerator pedal is held down 1/4", you won't get the nice "idle flare-up" to 1500 rpm at start-up, and it may tend to stall at stop signs. A very specific set of conditions is required for minimum throttle to be relearned. To meet those conditions, drive at highway speed with the engine warmed up, then coast for at least seven seconds without touching the pedals.

If idle speed isn't the problem, fuel pressure may have bled down while the engine was off. Pressure should hold for weeks, but it isn't uncommon for an injector to leak slowly. The fuel pump runs for one second when you turn on the ignition switch, in case that pressure did bleed down a little, but if it dropped to 0 psi, that one second isn't enough time to get it back up for starting. The engine may fire on the fuel that dribbled into the intake manifold from the leaky injector, but since system voltage is low during cranking, the fuel pump runs slower during those few seconds, so fuel pressure may not build up to normal fast enough. The fuel pump resumes running during cranking, then it's runs at full speed after the engine has started. That would result in the engine running fine after the second starting attempt.

The best way to identify low fuel pressure as the cause of the stalling is to connect a fuel pressure gauge, then run the hose under the rear of the hood and clip the gauge under the right wiper arm so you can watch it. If fuel pressure drops significantly over time, the first suspect is a leaking injector. Since that doesn't cause any other problems, one way to prevent the stalling is to turn the ignition switch to "run", then back to "off". Turn it to "run" a second time, then crank the engine. That will give the fuel pump two seconds to run before the injectors start firing, so pressure will build up higher.
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Wednesday, October 23rd, 2019 AT 5:16 PM
Tiny
JOHN LUYMES
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Thank you for your prompt comprehensive answer. I do think the problem is related to fuel in some way but the curiosity is that the van will sometimes run fine after one extra try at starting whereas other times it has taken two or three. In my general internet searches, I came across a Vertical Visions website that suggests the problem could be a faulty fuel pump relay that is soldered underneath the fuse block printed circuit and which various Dodge vehicles of this vintage are known to have troubles with. My daughter's van has not shown any symptoms I described for over ten days now but they are likely to resurface if the past is any indication of the future.
I do have a fuel pressure gauge. Based on your suggestion, I'd like to find out whether the buildup of pressure is somewhat on the slow side. John.
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Thursday, October 24th, 2019 AT 7:52 PM
Tiny
CARADIODOC
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I get the impression you're over-thinking this by your comment that sometimes it takes two tries at starting, and sometimes more. That would most likely just be a factor of how long the engine has been off since it was run last. The longer it sits, the more the fuel pressure will bleed down, and the harder it will be to get the engine restarted.

My daily drivers are old Caravans that usually have between 250,000 to 440,000 miles. Because leaking injectors can be so common, I'm in the habit of turning the ignition switch on, waiting to hear the hum of the fuel pump stop, then I crank the engine. The potential fix is way too involved to justify the time and expense for such a minor inconvenience. Also, to put your mind at ease, if you really do have a leaky injector, that has nothing to do with an engine stalling while you're driving, or any other problem. It won't cause any other problem either.
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Thursday, October 24th, 2019 AT 8:42 PM
Tiny
JOHN LUYMES
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Okay, thanks. I will mention to my daughter to wait a few seconds each time for the fuel pump to stop running after turning the key on to see if the intermittent problem disappears.
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Thursday, October 24th, 2019 AT 11:36 PM
Tiny
STEVE W.
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  • 13,419 POSTS
Have her try this: Get in, turn the key to on leave it on for 3-4 seconds, then turn it off and back on. Do this about 3 times. Now see if it starts up when the key is turned the next time.
If this works, which I think it might, you have a bad check valve in the pump. That is letting the fuel pressure fully bleed off and it is taking extra time for it to prime. There are a couple of ways to repair this. One is to replace the pump assembly. The other is to buy an aftermarket check valve that can be installed in the fuel line to hold the pressure.
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Monday, October 28th, 2019 AT 2:46 AM
Tiny
JOHN LUYMES
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Thanks for your additional suggestion. My daughter was over yesterday and she mentioned the van, after about two weeks of showing no symptoms, had done the same again two days ago but it only took one retry and then it was fine again.
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Monday, October 28th, 2019 AT 10:50 AM
Tiny
STEVE W.
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Okay, that is one of the problems with problems like this, they don't happen all the time. Ask her how long it normally sat between uses, and did it set longer before it acted up this last time. IE: It normally sets a day or two and doesn't have a problem and then it sat a week and had the problem? That might help with the diagnostics.
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Thursday, October 31st, 2019 AT 3:39 PM
Tiny
JOHN LUYMES
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Thanks Steve. My daughter uses the van multiple times a day (probably starting it at least 6-10 times through the course of the day) because she brings and picks up her oldest six year old son to and from school every weekday. It's used every Saturday and Sunday as well to cart her three children around. I don't think the issue is related to how long the van has been sitting idle. Right now we are in a wait and see if the problem gets worse mode.
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Thursday, October 31st, 2019 AT 4:29 PM
Tiny
STEVE W.
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Okay, that may mean it is actually the fuel pump or it's power circuit as you originally thought. If you can find someone with an oscilloscope you could look at the waveform of the pump motor by tapping into the fuel pump fuse and seeing if it had a dead segment or excessive current draw.
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Thursday, October 31st, 2019 AT 6:59 PM
Tiny
JOHN LUYMES
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  • 15 POSTS
Okay Steve. Thanks very much.

I have an unrelated question: Having found your website quite by accident via a general search a few weeks ago, I am curious to know how you are able to answer questions like mine without charging a fee. Surely the two of you car pros could keep busy full-time just addressing troubleshooting needs online. Do you get some revenue from advertisers? Just curious. Regardless, thanks so much for your help. You have answered far more times than I would have expected and gone beyond the call of "duty"!
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Thursday, October 31st, 2019 AT 7:27 PM
Tiny
KEN L
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Thanks for the question. Check this link out:

https://www.2carpros.com/pages/about-2carproscom

Use 2CarPros anytime, we are here to help. Please tell a friend.
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Friday, November 1st, 2019 AT 10:22 AM
Tiny
JOHN LUYMES
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To whom may be interested:
I understand from reading part of your website that you appreciate having a circle closed on a repair question that was initiated in the past so that a variety of readers may benefit from the experiences of others.
Regarding my daughter's Grand Caravan starting/running issues, it was fine for about six weeks again until two days ago when it would not keep running, regardless of how many times it cranked and momentarily ran. As it turned out, I took the innovative advice of the Vertical Visions website suggestion and created a fused wire to bypass the fuel pump relay. The van started immediately started and kept running. The details I put in place are described under Frequently Asked Question No. 19 at the following URL: https://www.verticalvisions.com/tipm-test-bypass-cable-mini-blade-fuses.html#faq2. While it is considered a temporary solution, I see no reason in principle to not leave the bypass wire in place indefinitely. It beats spending some $1000 for a new fuse block as the dealer would typically recommend! John
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Sunday, December 1st, 2019 AT 4:42 PM
Tiny
STEVE W.
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The TIPM is a - insert your profanity of choice here - they can cause a lot of issues and many are ones that are difficult to repair. However in your case Chrysler has a remote relay kit that puts a new fuel pump relay outside the TIPM. That way the pump turns on and off as it should. The issue with leaving the bypass in is that if there is an accident the pump doesn't turn off with the relay. I believe the same company shows that relay install wiring.
The choice is yours.
Thank you for replying back. It can make it much easier when others have the same problem.
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Sunday, December 1st, 2019 AT 5:02 PM
Tiny
JOHN LUYMES
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  • 15 POSTS
Hello Steve: The way I read the description under the No. 19 question on the Vertical Visions website is that use of the M37 circuit does prevent the fuel pump from running in a crash if the lower 10 amp fuse at the M25 fuse location is removed. The paragraph answer explicitly addresses this. An earlier bypass solution suggested connecting the M7 circuit to the M25 one which could potentially create a dangerous fuel pump running problem after an accident. It seems like the creator of the Vertical Visions website researched the issue comprehensively in coming up with the suggested ingenious simple low-cost solution.
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Sunday, December 1st, 2019 AT 5:18 PM
Tiny
STEVE W.
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In that case it might be OK. Didn't read all of it because I'm used to just replacing the relay with a better one when I run into a problem. Either way it seems like it works.
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Sunday, December 1st, 2019 AT 5:44 PM
Tiny
JOHN LUYMES
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I was tempted to take the fuse block apart originally to see if resoldering a new and better relay would have been possible.
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Sunday, December 1st, 2019 AT 6:44 PM
Tiny
STEVE W.
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It is not something that is fun the first time, but after you do a few it's not difficult. The hardest thing is getting a relay that is better than the OEM that will fit. Normally I will replace the relay, then add a good external relay for the smaller one to power. Takes the load of the pump off the small contacts that way.
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Monday, December 2nd, 2019 AT 9:32 AM
Tiny
JOHN LUYMES
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Thanks Steve. It still baffles me that Dodge and other manufacturers design fuse blocks without a removable relay like some vehicles still have. How many customers have been hosed over the years across your country and mine by having been told to replace a $1000 (Canadian) TIPM for a 5 buck part. It makes car owners suspicious of the whole parts and service game. I appreciate all your help and suggestions along the way.
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Monday, December 2nd, 2019 AT 6:27 PM
Tiny
STEVE W.
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You can lay that right at the DaimlerChrysler ownership period, they wanted the same mess on those vehicles as they had on the overly complex German stuff they already built. For a while the TIPMs were being replaced so much that they couldn't keep up and were over 3 months behind. Worse then the fuel pump relay is that the horn relay, each turn signal, Headlights and most other electrical stuff is all in that box. Right front turn signal fails = replace the TIPM, horn stops working = replace the TIPM. Etc.
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Monday, December 2nd, 2019 AT 9:34 PM
Tiny
JOHN LUYMES
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  • 15 POSTS
Interesting stuff that little of the public knows about. Hope the horn, lights and other components you mentioned hold out on the van. Again, thanks for the conversation from way out here in Abbotsford, an hour east of Vancouver, British Columbia.
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Monday, December 2nd, 2019 AT 10:30 PM

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