After replacing the brakes, the brake pedal still goes to the floor?

Tiny
MELISSA ACOSTA
  • MEMBER
  • 2017 JEEP PATRIOT
  • 2.0L
  • 4 CYL
  • 2WD
  • AUTOMATIC
  • 147,374 MILES
I recently replaced my brake calipers and the pads and today I replaced the master cylinder. However, my pedal is still going to the floor, and I have to use the emergency brake to stop. I'm getting really frustrated here. Can you please tell me what could be doing this and how I could fix it before I burn this truck to the ground?
Saturday, May 13th, 2023 AT 5:47 PM

30 Replies

Tiny
JACOBANDNICKOLAS
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Hi,

If the brake master cylinder was allowed to get too low, chances are you have air in the ABS hydraulic unit.

As a result, you will need to perform an automated bleed procedure. This requires a bidirectional scan tool that can communicate with the module.

If you look below, I attached the directions. Let me know if this helps or if you have questions.

Take care,

joe

See pics below.
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Sunday, May 14th, 2023 AT 10:01 PM
Tiny
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I was changing the oil pan yesterday and was under my truck for some time scraping the gasket sealer off and I noticed what the problem is. On the new caliper the bleeder is leaking. The bad part about it is I got it from Rockauto, refurbished in a complete package with rotors and pads and the other caliper I received was leaking because where the brake line connects to it was curved. That was noticeable but this isn't as noticeable, and I don't think they will give me the money back for it now.
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Monday, May 15th, 2023 AT 7:23 AM
Tiny
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You should be able to purchase a bleeder at any parts store. Have you checked?

Let me know.

Joe
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Monday, May 15th, 2023 AT 7:05 PM
Tiny
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I have replaced the master cylinder to my brakes on my truck and I have gotten new calipers for my truck as well. The problem was still air in the lines even though I did the bench bleed for the master cylinder, and I bled the brakes for what seemed like the entire system. So, it just goes to show me that even though I did everything correctly I didn't do it as much as I should have and it is never too much when it comes to bleeding your brakes. If you think you have done it enough, do it a lot more because you will pay for it if you don't.
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Thursday, July 27th, 2023 AT 11:42 PM
Tiny
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Hi,

Thanks for the update. It sounds like everything is working properly now, correct? If so, good job.

Take care and feel free to come back anytime in the future.

Joe
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Friday, July 28th, 2023 AT 6:46 PM
Tiny
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Yes, as far as my brakes are concerned, I am finished. Everything is good and I am done but everything else with this vehicle is making me sick. Something has to be bent as far as the frame, but I can't find it and the dealership lied to me. I really wish I could make them pay for what they have done.
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Friday, July 28th, 2023 AT 7:15 PM
Tiny
JACOBANDNICKOLAS
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Hi,

Bent frame? That isn't good. If you have a thrust angle alignment, they should be able to tell if something is off.

Joe
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Friday, July 28th, 2023 AT 7:45 PM
Tiny
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I don't have a thrust angle alignment and I don't think I have ever heard of it before. What is it and what does it do?
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Saturday, July 29th, 2023 AT 1:09 AM
Tiny
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If I might stick my nose in here, years ago only the two front wheels were aligned, and it was assumed the rear axle and wheels where perfectly straight and parallel. If that wasn't the case, the rear wheels would steer the car into a turn. You had to counteract that by turning the front wheels the same way to make the car go straight down the road. That meant the steering wheel was off-center.

The next innovation was the thrust alignment. Mirrors were added at the rear wheels so the mechanical alignment equipment could show us how to compensate for rear wheels steering off to one side. "Thrust angle" refers to the direction the rear wheels are steering. It's extremely rare to find a car with 0.00 degrees thrust angle. Instead, almost every vehicle has some thrust angle, but it is way too small to see when you're watching the car in front of you. It is enough to make the steering wheel off-center. By looking at that thrust angle, the alignment equipment shows where to adjust the front wheels so we'll end up with a straight steering wheel.

All modern alignment computers offer the option to perform a thrust alignment which, again, just looks at the rear wheels to tell us where to set the front wheels to get the straight steering wheel. Today the standard is the "four wheel alignment". That has nothing to do with four-wheel-drive or all-wheel-drive vehicles. It simply means the computer is going to show us all four wheels, not just the front two. Even if we don't or can't make adjustments to the rear wheels, the computer looks at them, then calculates where it wants us to set the front wheels.

That's the overly-complicated explanation of how we achieve a straight steering wheel during the alignment. The standard four-wheel alignment does everything a thrust alignment does, and more. The reason Joe specified the thrust alignment is the computer is going to show exactly which way each of the wheels is steering. Remember, steering a little to either side is common and acceptable, but we're looking for something excessive or unusual to point to a bent frame or other damage to steering and suspension parts.
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Saturday, July 29th, 2023 AT 4:58 PM
Tiny
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Caradiodoc, I will give you my number at the email because I would really like to talk to you about my Patriot and find out what I can do because I really love my truck but I know that it had to have been wrecked and the dealership never reported it so that it would pass a Carfax report. I have looked at the frame but if I have a better idea of what to look for and where I know I can fix it. I'm just that stubborn. Thank you
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Sunday, July 30th, 2023 AT 2:26 AM
Tiny
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I'm not trying to take over your question. I'm just following along in hopes of learning the solution to the original problem, but it has turned to one of my specialty areas.

The first thing to do is analyze the tire wear patterns. This article may be of help:

https://www.2carpros.com/articles/how-car-tires-work

The next thing is a little trickier, but I have a hint. That is to check for excessive dog-tracking. Someone following you on the highway might be able to see that, but it can be misleading unless you're on a motorcycle so you can switch from side to side to compare them. A quick clue can be found, assuming the steering wheel is centered now when you're driving straight ahead. Stop, then turn the steering wheel as far as possible each way. Compare the position of the steering wheel at each limit. If you can rotate the wheel, let's say, two revolutions to the left, but only one and a half revolutions to the right, the steering gear is off-center when the steering wheel is straight. That's an indication the rear wheels are steering to one side excessively. This is where the thrust alignment or a four-wheel alignment would have compensated for that and left it with a straight wheel. This can also be caused by nothing more than a bent steering arm or linkage. That can make the steering wheel off-center, which was the clue, but it can usually be adjusted out during the alignment. To say that a different way, the steering gear can be off-center due to frame damage or simply due to a bent steering system part.

The next thing is the alignment. Be sure to ask for a printout of the results. I always made a copy to keep, and one that I put on the passenger seat, with the items I changed or adjusted highlighted. All alignment computers can make printouts but most mechanics don't bother because they know the average driver won't understand it. The most common page to print shows the three main alignment angles for the front wheels and the two angles for the rear wheels. I'd rather see the more detailed and comprehensive report. It will include the "Before" and "After' readings with a long list of items. One of them is "Steering Axis Inclination", or "SAI". This is a real good indicator of frame damage in the front, or of very careful and accurate crash repair.

There's a lot of misinformation when it comes to CarFax reports. First, it only covers major things, and only from businesses that report these things. It will include anything that involved a police report, but there's a real lot that never gets reported. I have a friend with a body shop where he specializes in rebuilding smashed one and two-year-old Dodge trucks.
There's always a half dozen in his yard waiting until he has time to work on them. Some have frame damage that he handles himself. Part of that repair involves using special measuring equipment indexed off the holes underneath in the frame rails or unibody sheet metal. That can show if the frame is bent, diamond-shaped, or straight. With even a little damage that you or I would never see, doors, fenders, and hood would not fit right. The gaps between panels will be wrong, and sometimes bolt holes don't line up. It actually takes less work to pull a frame straight than it takes to cobble the parts bolted to it to make them fit.

My friend does insurance work, so those vehicles usually had some type of police report. A lot of what he does involves the farmers in his area. They tear up driveshafts and transfer cases, back into them with their tractors, and get them stuck on tree stumps. CarFax won't show that type of damage, but you aren't likely to get involved with a vehicle like that. They typically keep those vehicles running until the wheels won't stay on.

Don't blame the dealership for hidden or unknown damage. They often buy cars from dealer-only auto auctions, and they never know the vehicle's history other than it might have been a turn-in from a rental agency or was previously a police car or taxi.

For another example, my mother chased down a light pole a few years ago in the Walmart parking lot. Unfortunately, she caught it. Basically just needed a new bumper cover and radiator, but it still came to $2500.00. My friend did the repairs. No police report, no insurance company involvement, and nothing on CarFax about it. The only way an expert would know something was repaired would be by the sticker on the radiator.

My 2014 Ram is another example. It was a rebuilder. I definitely do not have the talent for body work, but I do know how to spot some repairs. The only thing anyone can see is a little yellow paint from the used door hinge peeking out where the new paint didn't get to. That door came from his sister's truck after she crashed it. Before that, it was a rebuilder that he repaired for her, so my door is on its third truck.

The point of this sad story is I am no longer afraid of crash-repaired vehicles because I know from helping my friend what to look for. Beefing up damaged areas can be just as bad as not repairing them properly because you may lose the designed-in crumple areas that absorb forces in a crash. There's a lot of liability issues involved with these repairs, so most shops are very careful to do a proper job.

If you do have an alignment performed, post a photo of the printout. I can explain what each item is and if any of them are pointing to a potential problem. When they list "Before" and "After" values, those refer to what the vehicle came in with before anything was adjusted, and after the alignment was finished, what the final values were when the test-drive was performed.
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Sunday, July 30th, 2023 AT 7:54 PM
Tiny
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When I had the vehicle for only a few months I kept losing air in both passenger side tires and I still had a warranty, so I took it back to the dealership to have them look at it and find out what was wrong. They tried to tell me that I ran over a nail and got both tires when I knew there were no holes in my tires because I did the water test on both tires. They replaced both tires even though they weren't covered in the warranty. Then my passenger side CV axle went bad, and I replaced it myself and I found at least 20 zip ties holding the boot on it. They even had zip ties inside the boot that they tightened and missed the cup on the end of the boot where the clip is supposed to be. Now I just do a little bit of mechanical work on my vehicles even though I have rebuilt a 72 Nova, 69 Cutlass SS, and a 68 Buick. I have pulled the motors and rebuilt them and the transmissions as well as the body and interior, but these newer vehicles are all computerized and I'm learning a lot about them because of nice people like you and the other professionals at 2carpros. I know enough about this one and dealerships to know that when they took the wheels off any mechanic worth a damn would have seen those zip ties and found the problem with the CV axle. I also know that no dealership will cover the cost of not one but two tires that aren't covered in the warranty unless they are hiding something. That's why I blame the dealership. I really appreciate everything all of you have done for me and I will be getting the alignment done soon because I had to replace the outer tie rod and I have a year of free alignments with the company I got my tires with. So, I will get the printouts for you and myself so you can help me figure this out once and for all. It's about to cost me my relationship with my fiancée because I have spent so much money on it and his car needs some work because he has a lot of rust under his car and it is over 200,000 miles and the parts are needing replaced, but I keep trying to fix mine because I want to be able to park his and use mine. I appreciate everything and I will get back to you when I get the printouts done. Thank you
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Sunday, July 30th, 2023 AT 9:10 PM
Tiny
CARADIODOC
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A common tire repair for nail holes is to plug them with inserts. I suspect you're familiar with them, but if you're not, they're a dandy fix to carry with you. I have almost a dozen of them in the tires on my truck. I seem to pick up nails in my friend's driveway. One tire has been losing air since I got the truck with only 4,200 miles. Funny thing is I have to pump it up about once every other month in the summer and every few days in the winter. I find most of my leaks when I park in a puddle, but even with soapy water, we haven't been able to find this one. Corrosion on cast rims is common too, and that can cause a spot to leak or not depending on which part is on the ground when the truck is parked.

It's also common to patch tire leaks, but that requires dismounting it from the wheel. That repair still leaves the hole where water and salt can get in to rust the wires of the steel belts. The best repair is to do both. The plug goes in first to seal the hole, then the tire is dismounted, the exposed part of the plug gets cut off, and the patch goes over the hole and plug. Not many people take the time to do that.

Tires are not supposed to be repaired with either patches or plugs if the hole is on the sidewall or near the edge of the tread. That's because it is felt there's too much flexing and the repair will fail. I have done a few plugs near the edge of the tread on my tires, and they've held up fine. I wouldn't do that on a customer's tire though, for liability reasons.

Let us know what you find with the alignment.
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Tuesday, August 1st, 2023 AT 6:43 PM
Tiny
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Yeah, but this wasn't a hole in my tires. When I took the rims off of my truck, I could clearly see the dents in both rims, but you couldn't see it with the tires on. They were black rims, and the dents were undetectable with tires.
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Wednesday, August 2nd, 2023 AT 10:01 AM
Tiny
JACOBANDNICKOLAS
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Hi Melissa,

I noticed that you haven't been contacted for a couple of days. As far as the rims, if they were bent, certainly that could cause a leak. I also read the post above about the zip ties on the CV axle. That doesn't sound good.

I'm not sure where you left it with my counterpart, but wanted to ask if there is anything I can do to help.

Let me know.

Joe
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Friday, August 4th, 2023 AT 7:44 PM
Tiny
CARADIODOC
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Hi brother Joe. I didn't mean to take over your question. The topic shifted to an alignment issue, and of course I had to stick my nose in. I'll add my next comment of value if and when it is warranted.
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Friday, August 4th, 2023 AT 9:00 PM
Tiny
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I appreciate all the help I can get. Right now everything is on hold. I'm traveling for work. Finished a show in West Memphis and right now I'm in Ohio and we're packing to go to Indiana. That's why I need a reliable vehicle. I've got to go so we can make it because we have to go to work at 4 pm today. I'll keep you posted about my vehicle. Thank you
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Sunday, August 6th, 2023 AT 8:27 AM
Tiny
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Hi,

Thanks for the update, Melissa. Let us know if we can help. And Caradiodoc, please feel free to jump in anytime. Your input is always appreciated.

Take care,

Joe
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Monday, August 7th, 2023 AT 12:58 PM
Tiny
MELISSA ACOSTA
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I just got back from the road and went to get an alignment and guess what. The outer tie rods we just replaced before the trip need to be replaced again and one of my sway bar links too. This is getting ridiculous; the auto shop couldn't do the alignment until I get both replaced. So, I have the parts and waiting for my truck to cool down then we'll change them and go back so I can get the printout for you.
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Tuesday, August 15th, 2023 AT 8:50 AM
Tiny
JACOBANDNICKOLAS
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Hi,

If you have worn steering components, they honestly can't do it. Well, they could, but it wouldn't be right.

How long did the tie rods last? One trip?

Joe
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Tuesday, August 15th, 2023 AT 8:55 PM

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