Hazards, turn and brake fuses all blow?

Tiny
JDFREEMAN97
  • MEMBER
  • 1980 JEEP CJ7
  • 4.2L
  • 6 CYL
  • 4WD
  • MANUAL
  • 1,111,111,111 MILES
This vehicle has a new Painless Performance wiring harness. I just finished installing it.

I just found out though that the fuses for the hazards, turn, and brake switches all blow when the switches for those respective lights are activated. They do not blow otherwise.

I have isolated the issue from between the switches and the fuse block. I know this because I can remove the tail section harness of the jeep and those fuses will still blow.

I have a test light, Fluke 117 multimeter, and alligator clips/wires.

What Can I test to find where the short is?

I have replaced the turn signal switch as well and still blow fuses.
Saturday, April 29th, 2023 AT 3:08 PM

13 Replies

Tiny
JACOBANDNICKOLAS
  • MECHANIC
  • 109,645 POSTS
Hi,

Based on what is happening, it is likely after the switch. At the switches you mentioned, there is power present. When you close the switch, power then moves to where it should go, signals, brake lights, and so on. That is when the fuse fails. Is that correct? If so, the short is after the switch.

I'm not familiar with the harness you mentioned. I know they exist, but I've never dealt with them. All of the things that are failing to go to the rear lamps. Have you checked to see if anything is shorted there or if the wiring may have been pinched at some point?

Let me know.

Joe
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Saturday, April 29th, 2023 AT 8:03 PM
Tiny
CARADIODOC
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Without seeing a wiring diagram, I'm confused, (not arguing), of how you narrowed this down. If the short is between the fuses and a switch, the fuse should blow right away. With your dandy observation the fuses don't blow until a switch is activated tells me the short has to be after that switch.

Regardless, here's a trick that will let you get started without wanting to buy stock in a fuse manufacturer's company. You're a few steps ahead already with the parts you listed, so some of this is a repeat for the benefit of others researching this topic. Bare with me if some of this is already obvious to you.

The first drawing shows a typical under-hood fuse box with a relay removed. This procedure works just as well with relays or with fuses.

In the second drawing, the blown fuse has been removed.

The items needed are shown in the third drawing. The easiest way to connect the bulb is with a pair of clip leads and a pair of generic, universal spade-type terminals. You can find a dozen clip leads for about three dollars at Harbor Freight Tools. These are available in different sizes. Stick with the smallest ones to insure the alligator clip will fit inside the terminal.

To buy the terminals, you'll end up buying a box of typically 50 or more. Instead, any electronic hobbyist will have many of these lying around. The spade end should be no fatter than the mating terminals for the relay or fuse. It's common for the wire end to be too small in diameter for the alligator clip to fit in. The blue terminal has the insulating barrel removed by twisting it off. Now just stick the terminals in that way, and clip the alligator clips to them. The fourth drawing shows the terminals inserted in the fuse's socket. In the fifth drawing, a clip lead has been connected to each terminal.

Finally, in the sixth drawing, the bulb is connected. In this type of circuit, it may be powered up now, and if the short is present, the bulb will be full brightness. Bulbs get real hot and will melt plastic and carpeting, so be careful where you set it. The bulb could also be dim or off. If it's dim, the short is not present right now. Some current is flowing if the test bulb is dim. If the bulb is off, no current is flowing because everything on the circuit is switched off. In either of those last two cases, the bulb will flash full brightness if you do something to make the intermittent short occur. Tap around the vehicle with a rubber hammer, and move wire harnesses around to see what makes the short show up.

At this point it is almost required to know what is on the circuit so you'll know what to disconnect and where to look. If your new harness has other connectors along its route, disconnect them to see what takes the short out of the circuit. With your solid short, the intermittent part of this story doesn't apply. That makes it better for us because we'll know as soon as we find and remove the short. When you do something to remove the short, the test bulb will dim or go out. When the short is present and the circuit is powered up, the test bulb will limit current to a safe one amp or less.

A final word about the test bulbs. Because they limit current flow, even when the short is located and removed, items on that circuit will not operate. Most of the 12 volts in the circuit will be "dropped" across the bulb, leaving very little left for the rest of the circuit. Fan and seat motors will be totally dead until the fuse is reinstalled. In low-current lighting circuits such as for tail lights, you might see a dim glow in some of the vehicle's bulbs. They too will be normal full brightness once the test bulb is no longer in the circuit.

If you should do this in a high-current circuit such as for a heater or radiator fan motor, due to the big difference in resistance between the motor and the test bulb, most of the 12 volts will be dropped across the test bulb, so it will still appear to be bright. There may be only one or two volts dropped across the motor, so it's not going to run, even slowly. The secret here is to watch the brightness of the test bulb very closely. When the short is removed, the test bulb will dim so slightly that you can only see it as it happens.

If you aren't confident yet the short has been removed in a high-current circuit, use a larger bulb in place of the fuse. A common 9004 headlamp bulb will pass up to five amps on "low", and around six amps through the high beam filament. That can be enough to see a fan motor at least try to run very slowly. That movement and the less-than-full-brightness of the test bulb would prove the short is gone.

If you use a headlamp bulb in the vehicle's headlamp circuit, when the short is gone, you'll see the test bulb will be less than full brightness, and the headlights will be on but dim. If you unplug one headlamp, the remaining one and the test bulb will each drop roughly half of the 12 volts, so both will be dim and close to the same brightness. Of course once you find and remove the short, you probably won't care about going any further.

To get back to your new harness, we're likely not looking for a section that fell down onto hot exhaust parts or is draped across the sharp edge of a metal bracket. Being new, something is wired incorrectly, it's for the wrong application, or something is connected to the wrong place. Let me know what you find up to this point. If you have a diagram that came with the new harness, try to post a photo of it. Like a road map to a trucker, diagrams to me mean more than words.
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Saturday, April 29th, 2023 AT 8:19 PM
Tiny
JDFREEMAN97
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@JACOBANDNICKOLAS and @CARADIODOC thank you both for your replies.

I will get a test light wired up to the gauges.

I have lots of hunches but I reached out because I just need support, so I don't lose my mind. The harness part number is PN 10150 on Painless performance website. I have also attached diagrams from the manual. However, if you go to the website and look at their installation manual you can also read through it yourself.

Anyways, I will try the test light, but I think it's definitely something wired wrong or an installation error on my part. I do not think there are any broken wires or loose power wires from everything that I have checked. I did just realize though that another component the turn signal power wires connect to are the cluster in the center of a CJ7. So that is another possible short area?

Anyways, let me know what you see from the schematics that I can add to my list to check.
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Saturday, April 29th, 2023 AT 9:10 PM
Tiny
JDFREEMAN97
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https://www.painlessperformance.com/wc/10150

That is the link to the Part Number 10150, installation PDF is on the link as well.
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Saturday, April 29th, 2023 AT 9:11 PM
Tiny
JACOBANDNICKOLAS
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Hi,

The brake light switch sends power to the signal switch harness. Do me a favor. Disconnect the connector at the turn signals and see if depressing the brakes causes the fuse to fail. Power from the brake light switch is fed through the signal switch to both rear brake lamps. The brake light is the same element as the signals use.

Confirm which fuse is the one that fails and if everything has been replaced, including light sockets and the brake lamp switch.

Let us know.

Joe
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Saturday, April 29th, 2023 AT 9:36 PM
Tiny
JDFREEMAN97
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Joe,

Sorry, I should have been clearer about what I have tested. So, if the large connector that connects the Fuse panel/PDC to the turn signal switch in the steering column is unconnected the fuse for the brake switch will not blow. Does that answer what you were wanting me to test? I think the reason it does not blow though is because the signal for brake lights to the tail harness has to pass through the Turn signal Switch so that the switch knows to cancel the "brake" light to that side in order to flash it for "turn" signal.

Hopefully, that makes sense of what I have tried so far concerning the brake switch. I initially thought that was the only fuse when I found the issue, but I discovered later that any switch that is activated or connected through the turn signal switch will blow. Except the horn.

So, to be clear:
When turn signal switch is connected:
brake light fuse will blow when switch is activated
hazard fuse will blow when switch is activated.
Turn signal fuse will blow when switch is activated

This led me to believe the multifunction switch was bad so I replaced it and it is now new.

If the turn signal switch is not connected.

None of these fuse blow.

Let me know if I grossly misunderstood you or the schematic that Painless supplied.

Jacob
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Saturday, April 29th, 2023 AT 9:52 PM
Tiny
JACOBANDNICKOLAS
  • MECHANIC
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No, you are correct. If the brake lamp fuse doesn't fail and the signal switch is new, the problem is after that point. (Output from the switch)

So, disconnect the "To Taillight Harness" connector which I assume comes from the signal switch. With it disconnected at the switch, check for continuity to ground at each of the six wires. See pic below.

Note: to check for a short between the connector and the lamps, you should also disconnect the lamps. Otherwise, it will show ground through the bulbs.

Let us know.

Joe

See pic below.
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Saturday, April 29th, 2023 AT 10:16 PM
Tiny
JDFREEMAN97
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Good morning,

So, at this point, all the testing was done with the tail section of harness disconnected. I just disconnected the "to tail harness". Thats why in my original post, I said I had isolated the tail section of harness. Which was also another reason I was led to believe the turn signal switch was the culprit.

Should I check for continuity to ground at the harness side of the turn signal switch? That would probably work I think?

Jacob
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Sunday, April 30th, 2023 AT 6:21 AM
Tiny
JACOBANDNICKOLAS
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Hi,

Yes, check there. Also, we need to determine if the ground supply in the harness is shorted to one of the power wires. The one thing that doesn't make sense to me is if either signal causes it to fail. Each side has a separate supply wire. The Hazards and brake lamps use both at the same time. If it happens with both signals independently, I have a feeling the harness itself is bad or was put together wrong.

Let me know.

Joe
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Sunday, April 30th, 2023 AT 6:02 PM
Tiny
JDFREEMAN97
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Good evening,

So major development. After many hours with my multimeter. I have found that if I disconnect the FRONT turn signal housings from the front headlight harness, I have full functionality and I do not blow fuses at all. Also, I should retract my initial statements about the brake fuse. That fuse doesn't blow if the turn or hazard switch are open, so the problem has been Turn signal/hazard light related the entire time.

So back to the possible cause:

with the front turn signal housings and lights disconnected from the jeep, The hazards, turn signals and brakes all work and no fuses blow.

So, the issue has to be isolated to the front turn signal lamps, correct? Because if there was a short to ground in the wiring harness to the front turn signal lamps, the fuses would still blow, correct?

Thank you for your assistance. By the way, it is dearly appreciated.

Jacob
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Sunday, April 30th, 2023 AT 7:17 PM
Tiny
JACOBANDNICKOLAS
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Hi Jacob, you are exactly correct. If the problem was in the wiring, the fuse would fail even with the light assembly disconnected.

Have you checked the light socket? Which lamp assembly are you disconnecting, left or right?

Let me know.

Joe
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Monday, May 1st, 2023 AT 6:49 PM
Tiny
JDFREEMAN97
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Good evening again,

I have both disconnected at the moment. These lamp housings and pigtail on the housings are very suspect so I am ordering new ones for the CJ7.

Thanks for all your help. I appreciate it all.

Jacob
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Monday, May 1st, 2023 AT 8:45 PM
Tiny
JACOBANDNICKOLAS
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No problem. If you connect one at a time, you may be able to narrow it down to a specific side that is causing the issue. It could save you time later.

Regardless, let me know how things turn out for you. I'm interested in knowing.

Take care,

Joe
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Monday, May 1st, 2023 AT 8:56 PM

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