Subliminal shudder, possibly from the engine?

Tiny
PONTIMAN
  • MEMBER
  • 1988 BUICK REGAL
  • 2.5L
  • V6
  • 2WD
  • AUTOMATIC
  • 30,000 MILES
The miles listed above are the original miles on it.
Okay, we're talking about a car that looks like new, but is a classic ride based on its age.

The issue: I like to call it a 'subliminal shudder' during driving in every gear and at all speeds if engine and transmission has warmed up to their working temperature.

When you cold start the engine, the rpm jumps up to maybe 1,500 RPMs (don't have a rpm gauge in the dashboard) but comes down to maybe 800 RPMs within 3 seconds. This seems to be normal to me, because I had an '88 Olds Cutlass Supreme a few years ago, which is the same car, and it did this, too.
However, I put it into the overdrive position and start driving down the road (city limits) everything is fine, it runs smooth, accelerates as it should and there is no shudder. After 2-3 miles on the road the shudder starts and stays, so it's an issue that's just present when the engine and transmission has reached its working temperature.
So, the issue can't be generated by the really old factory tires, bad unbalanced brake discs or bad suspension parts (I guess).

What has been done until now:
First of all, I did an engine oil swap, new air filter and spark plugs, wires and the three ignition coils. I also cleaned the throttle body, but the issue is still present.

Just for your information:
There was (is) another issue: the car went off during driving after just one mile and won't came on when the engine had died and when I tried to fire it up again. It seems to be an issue with the charcoal canister or the lines that running through it, because when I opened the fuel cap, I could hear an inflating noise from the gas tank. I solved that on short notice for the moment, because I don't screw the gas cap completely down, so there is no vacuum build up in the gas tank anymore. By the way, the canister purge valve is working fine.

Back to the main issue: the subliminal shudder.
The transmission oil is really bad, this will be swapped next, along with a new transmission filter (parts have been ordered). But I don't think the shudder is transmission related.

There're are some ideas left in my head:
Bad/clogged fuel filter and/or fuel pressure valve? - No I don't think so, because it get enough fuel at highway speeds and long uphill roads
- bad oxygen sensor? - No, there is no SES light on (I checked the bulb and pulled codes from the ECU - No codes and bulb is fine, too.
- bad motor and/or transmission mounts? - Mabey, they're ordered and will be swapped soon.
- bad MAF sensor? - No, don't think so, because it will light up the SES.
- clogged catalytic converter? - Not sure, maybe, but then the issue should also be present with a cold engine, I guess.
- bad/clogged EGR-Valve? - It's an option, but will try to clean it first.
- bad/clogged PCV? - Don't know, I never had a bad PCV at one of my cars.
- bad intake manifold gasket? - Yes, that seems to be an reasonable option, but at 30k miles? - Mabey everything is possible.
- bad vacuum lines? - That could be also an option.

Feel free to brainstorm with me to solve the issue. If you have further questions, feel free to ask me. If I forgot something along my list, give me a soft kick.

Many thanks
Tuesday, August 1st, 2023 AT 2:58 PM

5 Replies

Tiny
JACOBANDNICKOLAS
  • MECHANIC
  • 109,700 POSTS
Hi,

When this happens, do you hear the engine going up and down as far as RPMs? Also, have you checked to see if there are diagnostic trouble codes stored? If you haven't, I would recommend doing that first.

This car has an OBD1 system that doesn't require a scanner to retrieve codes. All you need is a short jumper wire or even a paper clip. Follow the directions in this link and let me know what you find:

https://www.2carpros.com/articles/buick-cadillac-chevy-gmc-oldsmobile-pontiac-gm-1983-1995-obd1-code-definitions-and-retrieval-method

Next, if you haven't already, check to make sure there are no engine vacuum leaks.

Here is a link that explains how that is done:

https://www.2carpros.com/articles/how-to-use-an-engine-vacuum-gauge

Let me know what you find.

Joe
Was this
answer
helpful?
Yes
No
Tuesday, August 1st, 2023 AT 10:10 PM
Tiny
PONTIMAN
  • MEMBER
  • 15 POSTS
Hi Joe,

I don't have any codes stored in the ECU.

The engine rpms are going up and down a bit. I checked the vacuum lines as far as I can reach them, because some are under the plenum.
I sprayed some brake cleaner around the plenum and found a leak at between intake and throttle body. I tried to tighten the bolts a bit more, but it seems that the gasket is blown.

I will order a new gasket for the throttle body and the plenum, too.
It will take a few days, until the parts will reach me.

I also like to put a new TPS and IAC on. - Do you know the TPS output signal range for calibration?

Regards Heiner
Was this
answer
helpful?
Yes
No
Wednesday, August 9th, 2023 AT 1:01 AM
Tiny
JACOBANDNICKOLAS
  • MECHANIC
  • 109,700 POSTS
Hi,

Before I would replace things, first I would replace the gasket. If the engine is getting unmetered air into the engine, it can cause several different issues. You may find that the leak is the entire problem.

As far as the TPS, nothing was listed, but I did find a technical service bulletin related to the TPS. It does show the voltage range. I attached the entire TSB below for you to see.

Take care and let me know how things turn out.

Joe

See pics below.
Was this
answer
helpful?
Yes
No
Wednesday, August 9th, 2023 AT 9:01 PM
Tiny
PONTIMAN
  • MEMBER
  • 15 POSTS
Hey Joe.

I aligned the new TPS, put on a new IAC and MAP. A new fuel pump and fuel sending unit were installed. The plenum gaskets came new, and a ne PCV, too. Can't find any further vacuum leaks. I went on and cleaned the EGR-Valve, but there was just low carbon build up. The issue is still present.

I've still no SES light ON (drove about 500 miles since the parts were swapped).

Really despaired I pulled off the 5-pin plug of the EGR-Valve while the engine was running, just to see, if anything will change (no SES came ON and no other changes).
I drove 5 miles and stopped again, opened the hood and pulled the plug from the IAC-Valve. No SES light came ON and the car drove as bad as before.

I'm just wondering that I can't get the SES light intentionally ON when I drive the car with unplugged IAC- and EGR-Valve. Does it mean that my ECU is bad?
Was this
answer
helpful?
Yes
No
Saturday, September 30th, 2023 AT 2:06 AM
Tiny
JACOBANDNICKOLAS
  • MECHANIC
  • 109,700 POSTS
Hi,

The older OBD1 systems sometimes won't turn on a light, but they may have codes stored. If you followed the directions in the link I attached above, there should have been something. If this is a transmission issue, then that could justify why the light isn't turning on, but it doesn't make sense that it didn't turn on when you disconnected things,

Is it possible for you to record what it does and upload it for me to see and hear? It may help me.

Let me know.

Joe

PS: Be careful using brake fluid to find a leak. It can cause a fire faster than you think.
Was this
answer
helpful?
Yes
No
Saturday, September 30th, 2023 AT 9:13 PM

Please login or register to post a reply.

Sponsored links