Serpentine belt installed incorrectly?

Tiny
STEPPIE
  • MEMBER
  • 2000 CHRYSLER TOWN AND COUNTRY
  • 3.3L
  • 6 CYL
  • 2WD
  • AUTOMATIC
  • 146,000 MILES
Today I had a shop install a new serpentine belt. As I pulled into the driveway at home, about 7 miles from the shop, my power steering just stopped! There was no warning, no sounds nothing just one second fine and the next no power steering at all.
When looking at the belt it looks like they installed the belt going around the wrong side of the power steering pump pully.
Why didn't I get some kind of warning like whining or grinding from the pump or belt squeal. Also why did I have power steering at all? Shouldn't it have stopped working immediately?

Thanks for any answers!

John.
Wednesday, March 1st, 2023 AT 11:43 PM

7 Replies

Tiny
CARADIODOC
  • MECHANIC
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Those are questions for the people at the shop that did the work. It takes quite a bit of power to run a power steering pump, so to prevent the belt from slipping, that pulley is going to have ribs on it. The ribbed side of the belt must run around that pulley too. When you see a smooth pulley, the smooth backside of the belt runs on that one.

Here's the belt routing diagram for your engine. Note that item # 7 is a spring-loaded tensioner pulley. If the belt was simply flipped over, the wrong side of it will be in contact with its wrong side on every other pulley. If instead, it was routed incorrectly, the tensioner pulley won't hold the belt tight. Also, the correct side of the belt will be running on most pullies, but it will be on the wrong side on at least two of them.

Instead of being misrouted, it's more likely the belt fell off. You would have indeed noticed the loss of power steering assist, but the "Battery" warning light or message would have shown up too. The water pump would have stopped, but it would take up to a couple of miles before you noticed overheating.

A better suspect is a problem with one of the pullies. This is where we ask why the belt was replaced? If the old one fell off or shredded, the best suspect is a turned or tipped pulley. Most often that happens to idler pullies, (those that don't drive a pump or accessory). That includes item # 7 and the one straight to the right of it. Worn bearings can be felt as looseness in the pulley or that the belt is riding off-center from the rest. That takes a little more explaining, but for now, with the engine running, look for the shiny areas on each pulley where the belt has worn the paint off, and now the belt is running to the side of that area.

If the old belt was simply replaced for regular maintenance, the best suspect is the pivot arm of the tensioner pulley is rusted tight. It gets tugged into a new position to remove and replace the belt, then it is supposed to bounce back to pull the belt tight. If it sticks in the released position, you will normally hear a squeal, but not always. It's more likely the belt will pop off.

The belt can also get knocked off by a large pile of snow or when driving through deep water. There is a plastic shield to guard against that, but it can still happen.

The place to start is with a phone call to the shop that did the work. The mechanic deserves the right to correct any mistake he might have made. Reputable shops will take care of the belt or replace it again at no charge, but you can be expected to pay for additional problems they find related to it. That would be those pullies I mentioned. At the dealership I worked for, they would charge you for pullies or other parts that should have been found the first time, but they would typically not charge for additional labor, as a means of an apology. Don't expect that from every shop for additional parts, but you can expect no charge to put the belt back on.

Here's links to two related articles that might offer more information:

https://www.2carpros.com/articles/replace-serpentine-belt

https://www.2carpros.com/articles/serpentine-belt-tensioner-replacement

Please let me know how this turns out.
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Thursday, March 2nd, 2023 AT 11:43 AM
Tiny
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Hi Cardiodoc thanks for answering.

This has moved on to an epic level event!
I did return to the shop the next day and the technician confirmed she put the belt on the wrong side of the PS pump pulley. They inspected the belt and found no damage, so they rerouted it correctly, but this did not correct the problem.
We discussed it and they agreed that the pump must have been damaged by the belt being on wrong and agreed to install a new one at their expense.
I returned the following day, and they installed a new PS pump and pulley. However this still did not restore power steering!
A further inspection resulted in a diagnosis of a failed steering rack. They maintain that the original error could NOT have resulted in the steering rack failure but as I was not having any issues before the belt was installed wrong, I am doubting that assertion.
At this point I am searching for another shop to get another opinion from but maybe you can offer one.
Could having the belt on the wrong side of the pulley, thus turning the PS pump in the opposite direction, have caused a pressure issue that could damage a steering rack? Could simply being without the PS pump assistance and being driven such a short distance (under 20 miles) have damaged the rack? Or is this just a coincidence?
Does the new failure have nothing to do with the original mistake?

PS we have a Chilton's manual that shows the correct belt path, for the 3.8 liter, which is how we identified the error originally and that was confirmed by the shop on my first return visit so that's not in dispute. Whether or not the steering rack damage can be attributed to that mistake is what is being disputed.

Thanks again for your input!
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Monday, March 6th, 2023 AT 4:03 PM
Tiny
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Unfortunately, this is something you almost have to solve before you can identify the actual cause. My first concern was how could you have power steering originally if the belt was going the wrong way around the power steering pump pulley? Power steering pumps are something we never take apart or try to repair, so I can only go by what I learned in classes over the years. I do know they have a rather complicated pressure relief valve. That's what makes the hissing noise when you turn all the way to one side, then put pressure on the steering wheel to turn further.

We don't normally repair or rebuild steering gears either, but they are a lot less complicated. I can't think of how one could be damaged by forcing pressurized fluid into the "return" port. That fluid would bump up against Teflon seals which look like little metal piston rings. They normally get pressure on the other side, so they're designed to take it.

If I was still at the dealership, we had a test gauge for power steering systems. I only needed to use it once, but it can show whether the pump is developing its normal pressure, (roughly 1200 - 1400 psi), and if there's internal leakage inside the steering gear.

A simpler test is to disconnect the return hose at the pump, run the engine for a few seconds, then watch if fluid comes out that hose with the engine idling and again when turning the steering wheel. If fluid comes out all the time, including when the steering wheel is at rest, there is leaking in the steering gear. That pressurized fluid would be bypassing the power piston so there would be no power assist.

I have a bigger suspicion there is just a lot of air in the system. This will start to work its way out over time, but you have to keep checking if the reservoir is full. Ford has had a real big problem with this for years. There's all kinds of specialty tools made to bleed their power steering systems.

A clue that air is the problem is if you get even the slightest hint of power assist at any time. That would prove the pump is working and that pressurized fluid is being directed to the power piston in the steering gear. That would also indicate the seals in the steering gear are in good shape.

I have to agree, I don't see how the steering gear could have been damaged, but this is where the proof is in seeing the system work after that last part was replaced.
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+1
Monday, March 6th, 2023 AT 4:43 PM
Tiny
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I had another thought that may be of value. Consider visiting a Chrysler dealership and talk with their steering, suspension, and alignment specialist. Best would probably be just at the start of lunch hour. They have two resources that may be able to provide better answers.

The first one is called "Star Hotline". It is only for dealership mechanics who are expected to be very knowledgeable about the problem. Unfortunately, my experience a couple of times was I was smarter than the person on the other end who was just reading from a script. The people on that hotline are supposed to be able to help find solutions for uncommon or elusive problems, especially those that defy logic. They don't get involved with what is or is not covered by any warranty, but if one person was able to put the belt on wrong, you can be sure someone else has done it already. There may be a similar case logged with a solution provided.

The second resource is the Chrysler training centers. In between teaching classes, these are the people who bring in vehicles that no one has been able to diagnose, and this is where technical service bulletins are generated. Those are very different than recalls. A TSB is issued to provide the solutions to problems that have shown up on a number of one car model, and the diagnosis can be very tedious, time consuming, or elusive. They're meant to save time for the mechanic and his customer. If anyone would know off the top of their head what could happen with a misrouted belt, it would be them.

For future reference, if this had been done at a dealership, and especially if there's a dispute over warranty coverage, they have a District Representative who visits them once a month for just such problems. This is one of the few times the dealership owner's office door will be closed. He will be your advocate with the District Rep on the other side of the desk. That Rep has the authority to warranty "anything", and they're very good at keeping customers happy.

Many of those questionable warranty issues simply can not be handled by the dealer alone due to franchise regulations, but to bridge the gap when waiting for the appointment with the District Rep, Chrysler used to allow a dollar amount to each dealership every year for cases where something failed or went wrong that is technically out of warranty, but it really shouldn't have happened. Back in the days when the standard warranty was 12 months / 12,000 miles, they could use those funds up to 18 months / 18,000 miles with no authorization needed from Chrysler. Because those funds were limited, they only got used for very good repeat customers, and those who were calm and respectful. Anyone who came in screaming or with "unreasonable expectations" was unlikely to be on the receiving end of that courtesy.

You can get the same consideration from independent shop owners too, but they obviously have much more limited resources.

I should mention too that starting with the '93 Intrepid, "variable power steering assist" was introduced. That was an unnecessarily complicated system designed to save a teaspoon of gas. I never had to diagnose one of those or repair it, but I do recall its computer module was accessed with a scanner under the "Automatic Transmission" menu. That's a very small black plastic box that mounts on or near the rack and pinion steering gear. It gets data from the Transmission Computer, including road speed and the gear the transmission is in, then uses that to know when to decrease power steering assist. The Transmission Computer is capable of detecting defects and storing diagnostic fault codes just like Engine Computers do. Transmission fault codes will set a code P0700 in the Engine Computer which just says there are codes that need to be read in the Transmission Computer, but since transmission trouble could adversely affect emissions, it also turns on the Check Engine light. If a fault code is set in the Transmission Computer related to the variable power steering assist, that would not affect emissions, so it would not turn on the Check Engine light. It might pay to mention this to the people working on this problem. Most people don't realize this system is there and they would never think of having to look under "Transmission" to see the data and fault codes.

Please keep me updated on your progress.
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Monday, March 6th, 2023 AT 5:54 PM
Tiny
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Your comment about air in the lines has my attention! I have noticed that there are moments that I seem to have power assist, but they are brief and infrequent.
As I said we have a Chilton's and I know it gives instructions on how to bleed the PS system, I'll pick up some fluid in the morning and go from there.

Thank you! I'll update after I give this a go.
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Monday, March 6th, 2023 AT 7:24 PM
Tiny
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Do you happen to know off the top of your head whether this system requires a vacuum bleed or can I do it old school by just opening the reservoir and turning the wheel?
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Monday, March 6th, 2023 AT 7:51 PM
Tiny
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You don't have to remove the cap except to add fluid. In fact, with the Fords, when an air pocket heats up and expands, it sends giant blobs of fluid shooting out that make a huge mess. The reason for using a special funnel on those is because so much fluid is expelled with each burp that the pump only has more air to pump. The funnel lets there be a lot of extra fluid to run in and replace that air.

I never needed any special tools when working at the Chrysler dealership. On a couple of occasions I had to park sideways on an incline in the parking lot, run the steering from side to side, then turn around so the other side was uphill, then do that again. That ensured that at some point the air pocket was at the low end and would wash up to the fluid return port in the steering gear. From there the air rushes back into the reservoir and gets replaced by fluid.
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Tuesday, March 7th, 2023 AT 1:31 PM

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