P0420 check engine light

Tiny
NACHOBEAR
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  • 2008 SUBARU OUTBACK
  • 2.5L
  • 4 CYL
  • AUTOMATIC
  • 180,000 MILES
Hi all,

I want to get a wiring diagram of the oxygen sensor and coolant sensor since I want to test out these parts. I need to know where to put the leads of the volt meter?

also, want to know what is a open and closed loop what is shorted finding out if something has poor electrical connection and how can I tell unsure what the mileage is on this car, pretty sure it is above 100,000?

I want to get a wiring diagram of the oxygen sensor and coolant sensor since I want to test out these parts. I need to know where to put the leads of the volt meter.

also, I do not know what settings I need to put the volt meter, unsure what numbers I should be looking for on the volt meter screen? Also if a diagram is found, where do you guys find them?

2000 Corolla CE 1.8 Liter also want to know what is a open and closed loop what is shorted finding out if something has poor electrical connection and how can I tell the coolant sensor does not involve the P0300 but another car I have has the P0420 so I just wanted to ask.
Sunday, September 17th, 2017 AT 4:03 PM

4 Replies

Tiny
CJ MEDEVAC
  • MECHANIC
  • 11,004 POSTS
Vehicle is not super old.

Anybody tinkered with the wiring/ exhaust?

P0420 is more related to and around the catalytic converter.

Holes/ cracks in the exhaust system?

The o2's, faulty (damaged) wiring/ connections or maybe a bad sensor itself

Converter could be bad too!

Testing this stuff fully may require some expensive and special tooling, and knowing how to use it!

Generally, in a situation like this, with everything else still being okay, the downstream O2 (down stream end of the converter) is usually the one to give a problem and to be replaced, the converter itself being the last possibility (and could be the problem too).

Let's try something stupid before we get all flustered and spend a bunch of money!

Run a bottle/ can of Seafoam in a tankful of fuel, clear the code, see if it returns?

Might be that simple!

Open/closed loop?

See if my South Carolina boy explanation makes sense. See my answer in the link below. Sort of substitute your sensor(s) in the writing where his appears.

https://www.2carpros.com/questions/2002-kia-sportage-bad-thermostat-car-live-on-hot-climate-should-remove-good

Other experts may jump in here with their answers.

Return here with good news or more questions!

The Medic

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Sunday, September 17th, 2017 AT 4:46 PM
Tiny
CARADIODOC
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What you are asking took about two weeks of my eight-week Automotive Electrical class. I can teach you how to read a digital voltmeter, but it covered three pages of the web site I used to have. I do not have enough time left in my life to retype that here. Instead, see how far this gets you:

https://www.2carpros.com/articles/how-to-use-a-voltmeter

This article shows an auto-ranging digital meter. I have over a dozen meters from my TV/ VCR repair days, and never owned an auto-ranging meter. When I did use one, I made too many mistakes by failing to notice when it had changed the range on me. With regular meters, select the "20-Volt DC" range when working on cars with 12-volt electrical systems. That range will display any value from 0.00 to 19.99 volts, with the greatest amount of accuracy.

The engine computer runs self-tests on the sensors you want to test. My students only performed their own tests to learn how they work. We do not do that on customer's cars due to the wasted time and the cost to the car owners.

P0420 - Catalyst System Efficiency Below Threshold (Bank 1)

If the only fault code you have is code 420, the engine computer sets that after analyzing the readings from two properly-working sensors. A wiring problem related to either the front or the rear oxygen sensor will be detected, and the appropriate fault code will be set. Once that happens, the computer knows it cannot trust that sensor, and it cannot rely on test results that were calculated from those readings. That means code 420 can not be set if either oxygen sensor isn't working properly. You do not replace the sensor when you do not like the results it is providing. With further testing for verification, code 420 means the catalytic converter is not causing a change in the composition of the exhaust gas, and likely needs to be replaced.

For wiring diagrams, the only format I prefer is a paper copy of the manufacturer's service manual, but they have mostly gone to CD's or DVD's now, and finding what you want is extremely frustrating. The better alternative is to buy a one-year or five-year subscription to AllData or Mitchell On-Demand. Independent repair shops pay over a thousand dollars per year for access to information on any vehicle. You can buy a subscription for just your car year and model for around twenty six bucks.

I recommend you come back here rather than spend your money on a service manual. If you do not know how to read a digital meter, you are not going to get anything of value from a wiring diagram, so your money will be wasted. The coolant temperature sensor has just two wires going to it. Voltage readings vary according to temperature, and they are totally invalid and meaningless if you take a reading with the sensor unplugged. The sensor's resistance reading will vary wildly too depending on its temperature, so what's the point in measuring the resistance? Let the computer tell you when there is a problem.
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Sunday, September 17th, 2017 AT 5:17 PM
Tiny
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I have decided recently that searching for a wiring diagram would not help me learn that much such it will only limit me to one vehicle, and to fix other cars it would require me to learn how to work without a wiring diagram.

I have gone to autozone and gotten Berryman since they had a deal buy 1 and get one2 off, so I got 2 bottles, I will let me brother try that stuff first,

the converter might be ok, since the first CAT got replace, this car has a 2nd CAT that will need to be looked at, I used a temperature gun and the first CAT might be triggering this code since I followed what ERICTHECARGUY on youtube video, and I don't know if I should trust the readings on the voltage on the 2 exhaust sensors, the 1st sensor is actually an Air Fuel Ratio sensor and the rear sensor is an oxygen sensor, it seems the ratio doesn't really change its voltage much when I higher the RPMS, it stays around 2 volts something

I would like to see how to test the exhaust sensors and coolant sensors(this car has 2 pins coolant sensor) as well.

There is also a chance of the exhaust leak, which I plan to smoke the system with a fog machine.
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Saturday, October 14th, 2017 AT 5:58 PM
Tiny
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I can't stress enough there is nothing you're going to learn from "testing" an oxygen sensor. "Air / fuel ratio" sensor is the same thing. The only people who test O2 sensors are the engineers who design the systems and want to see what kind of results are being reported so they can program the computer's software to look for the normal responses. We don't have access to their hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of equipment, and we wouldn't know how to interpret the results.

A properly-working front oxygen sensor will switch between "rich" and "lean" about two times per second once the sensing element reaches 600 degrees F. A digital voltmeter takes a reading, analyzes it, then displays it while it takes the next reading. It might measure one pulse at 0.85 volts, for example, then miss the next 0.27 volt, 0.74, 0.32, and 0.68 volt pulses, then take its next reading at 0.29 volts. Digital meters do not average their readings to smooth them out. You would see about every fifth or every eighth reading, and they would be bouncing around wildly too fast to see or to mean anything.

Some people mistakenly think they can use the " 20 AC Volts" scale, but most meters don't have an AC Volts scale that low. Also, AC voltmeters are only accurate when reading a clean sine wave at 60 hertz, (house current). The O2 sensor's wave forms are not even close to a sine wave, and they are much slower than 60 hertz. AC voltage rises smoothly up to its maximum voltage, then it goes to a maximum negative voltage. The meter flips over the negative part of the wave form so it is actually measuring only positive pulses. Oxygen sensor wave forms never go negative. It is actually pulsing between a lower positive voltage and a higher positive voltage, with 0.50 volts being the approximate cutoff point between "rich" and "lean". In the "AC Volts" range, the meter would see only the positive part of what it expects to be a true sine wave. The circuitry is designed to block DC voltage, so even though the voltage is changing rapidly, being only positive pulses, it looks like DC voltage, and it gets blocked. Your meter very likely would read 0 volts AC. What does that tell you when the sensor is actually working just fine?

There is one place where it can be of value to see what the oxygen sensor is seeing, but it requires an oscilloscope, similar to what I used for tv repair. Once you are taught what to look for in the wave form, you can determine if a misfire is being caused by a fuel problem, a spark problem, or a compression problem. This was taught by a fellow who owns a company that specializes in diagnosing the one in a hundred cars that no one seems to be able to figure out. Most of his customers are other repair shops. For the other 99 cars, there are other tests that usually let us figure out the same thing.

The goal of the Engine Computer is to get a perfect fuel / air mixture. For the purposes of this sad story, that would be 0.50 volts from the O2 sensor. The problem is oxygen sensors measure just that, ... Oxygen in the exhaust gas. They do not measure unburned fuel. If the exhaust goes a little lean, the sensor's readings would show that, and the computer would respond by adding a little fuel. If the mixture went a little rich, the sensor can't see the extra fuel, so it wouldn't be known or adjusted for. Instead, the computer purposely drives the mixture too lean, then too rich, about two times per second. When it goes too lean, the unburned oxygen is stored in the catalyst in the catalytic converter. A fraction of a second later when the mixture is too rich, the unburned fuel mixes with that stored oxygen, and is burned to clean it up. If the system were able to hold a steady 0.50 volts, there wouldn't be that stored oxygen in the catalyst when it was needed to address a slightly rich condition. That's why the mixture has to be constantly bouncing between "rich" and "lean". If the computer is satisfied with what it sees from the O2 sensor, the sensor is working. The best you can hope to do is read the voltages on a scanner. Over time the computer will average the mixture out so it is a perfect mixture.

The downstream, or rear oxygen sensor after the catalytic converter is even less exciting. If the converter is doing its job, the exhaust gas coming out will be slightly lean for a long time, then eventually will switch to a little rich. The switching rate could approach once every two or three minutes. The computer is looking at the two cycles per second from the front sensor compared to the real slow switching rate for the rear sensor. The only way that can happen is if the converter is working. When the converter stops doing its job, no change takes place in the composition of the exhaust gas as it passes through it. That means the rear sensor would report the exact same thing as the front sensor, and the switching rates would be identical. That would be for a totally failed, (or removed) catalytic converter. It doesn't even have to get that bad to set a diagnostic fault code. When the converter begins to have reduced effectiveness, the switching rate of the rear sensor will increase, to perhaps once a minute. That's not enough yet to do anything, but the computer is watching that. As the converter get even less effective, say from lead contamination, or pellets breaking loose and being expelled, the switching rate for the rear O2 sensor increases still more. There is a magic point where the computer decides too little change is taking place in the converter, and it knows that by the increased switching rate of that rear sensor. The point of value is the fault code for "catalytic converter efficiency" is set thanks to the greatly increased activity of the rear oxygen sensor.

There is always a long list of conditions that must be met for a fault code to set, and one of those conditions is certain other codes can't already be set. In this case, the computer is commanding a constantly changing rich and lean fuel condition by varying the length of time it pulses the injectors open, then it expects to see signal voltages from the front oxygen sensor confirming those mixtures. If the front sensor doesn't respond as expected, the computer sets a fault code for that sensor related to the defect it detected. With a known defect for the front sensor, the computer has nothing it can trust to compare the rear sensor's readings to, so it will not set a fault code for the rear sensor, even if it isn't working. This is one of those frustrating cases where you finally bring the car in and have the front sensor problem repaired, then the self-test for the rear sensor resumes, a problem is finally detected for it, the new fault code sets, and the Check Engine light turns right back on again. You incorrectly think the mechanic didn't diagnose the problem correctly or he didn't repair it properly, but he had no second fault code to know there was a second problem. This is frustrating for car owners and for mechanics, but it can be avoided by having the first problem repaired right away before the second problem has a chance to develop.

The bottom line is to have a fault code for "catalytic converter efficiency", you have to have two properly-working oxygen sensors. There's over a dozen fault codes related to failed oxygen sensors, and they mean very different things, or types of failures. The Engine Computer is real good at finding problems with the O2 sensors, but you don't have any fault codes indicating that. Your plan of attack is similar to an engine severely overheating and spewing coolant out every gasket, and you want to solve the problem by testing the coolant temperature sensor that is telling you the engine is too hot. You need to address the cause of the overheating. Your computer has already told you the catalytic converter isn't doing its thing. That's what you need to address, not the sensors that are reporting the condition.
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Saturday, October 14th, 2017 AT 10:45 PM

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