Debris fell into upper intake chamber while being removed

ZEN CHOP

MEMBER
2004 FORD FREESTAR
3.9L
6 CYL
2WD
AUTOMATIC
132,000 MILES

Okay. I parked the van one night with 1/8th of a tank and it sat for 2 days. Would crank next start but no turnover. I replaced the fuel filter and spark plugs (gapped properly), cleaned the air filter and fuel injectors. While the upper intake manifold was removed the metal gasket for the water pump may have fallen into the opening of the manifold while it was detached to allow upper intake to be removed. I put everything back and at this point realized the inertia switch had been tripped (likely from slamming back door which doesn't latch) and after resetting it the van started. Very rough idle and stalled out after several difficult starts which I assumed were to build fuel pressure up and work out any air that may have entered system (didn't know about the valve by the firewall designed to vent). Drove it one mile with it sputtering and thought the fuel pump was going. After reading codes it says 0320 which led me to the crankshaft sensor which I haven't tested yet because a guy who works with cars walked up while I was working on it, listened, and said it's thrown a rod. I listened, there is a knocking but it's not terribly consistent and doesn't seem to keep with rpms. So my question (finally) is, could the gasket have entered through intake and damaged piston or cylinder walls or anything that would cause the knock, is this something I can repair myself with average wrench skills (I've worked on motorcycles mostly but know how to read a diagram and normally cover intakes and hoses when working but didn't this time for some reason), or is the engine toast? It starts right up now but because of the noise I haven't driven or revved it up since being parked. I know a mile is enough to damage it so I'm hoping I can salvage it to some degree to at least limp it out of the parking lot it's currently in. Van was running perfect before parking for two days then through my incompetence all these issues started because I overlooked the inertia sensor thinking it was a fuel filter/pump issue. I have a code reader, compression tester, multimeter, and any sockets etc, I should need plus I'm parked right outside a harbor freight. I do not have a scope but can get one if necessary.

Sunday, June 12th, 2022 AT 3:27 PM

10 Replies

JACOBANDNICKOLAS

MECHANIC
110,053 POSTS

Hi,

If you had a metal gasket, drop into the intake, that is the likely cause of everything. I'm not sure what the knock is for sure, but if you could upload a video of it running for me to hear, it may help. Also, here is a link that you may find of interest. It discusses engine noises and what they are associated with.

https://www.2carpros.com/articles/engine-noises

As far as the gasket goes, the first thing I would suggest is to take things apart so you can access and remove it.

Also, if you feel there may have been damage to the cylinder walls or the top of a piston, perform the compression test to see if there is one or more cylinders low. Here is a link that explains how it's done:

https://www.2carpros.com/articles/how-to-test-engine-compression

Let me know if you can record it or perform the compression test. Also, here is a link that explains how to retrieve diagnostic trouble codes. If we can determine if it is a specific cylinder that has a misfire, we can check that specific one to see if there are issues.

Here is the link. You don't need a scan tool to retrieve the codes.

https://www.2carpros.com/articles/ford-lincoln-mercury-obd1-1995-and-earlier-diagnostic-trouble-code-definition-and-retrieval

Let me know.

Joe

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Sunday, June 12th, 2022 AT 10:10 PM

ZEN CHOP

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6 POSTS

So, good news to an extent, I was able to locate the gasket and it never entered the intake chamber. I am thinking that it is a compression issue, but I am waiting as the battery charges overnight to begin testing the system. I will check out the links you sent and appreciate the info as I'm having to learn how to do this as I go along. I will update with video tomorrow once I'm able to run the engine without my foot on the pedal to identify sound and behavior issues.

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Monday, June 13th, 2022 AT 4:20 PM

JACOBANDNICKOLAS

MECHANIC
110,053 POSTS

I look forward to seeing and hearing the video. Usually, I can tell what is happening from the sound it makes. (I've been in this too long, LOL)

Take care and let me know what I can do to help.

Joe

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Monday, June 13th, 2022 AT 7:31 PM

ZEN CHOP

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6 POSTS

Here's a video with 2 separate starts I did this morning.

Video (Click to make bigger)

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Tuesday, June 14th, 2022 AT 6:16 AM

JACOBANDNICKOLAS

MECHANIC
110,053 POSTS

Hi,

At first, it sounded like something was loose and rattling. But I certainly heard it.

Here is what I need. I need you to video it with the recorder under the vehicle, then in front of the engine so I can tell if it is a possible timing chain, and from the top.

Let me know if you can do that.

Joe

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Tuesday, June 14th, 2022 AT 8:38 PM

ZEN CHOP

MEMBER
6 POSTS

I can do that tonight, just have to swap batteries. It definitely sounded like a rattle to me, and the noise goes away if I accelerate. I double checked the fuel filter, and the hoses were loose in that if I spin the filter in place the hoses would work themselves off, so I put 15mm hose clamps with moderate tightness and reinstalled the gasket on what I guess is the EVAP unit. I'll get the video shot edited and uploaded within the next hour after the battery finishes charging.

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Tuesday, June 14th, 2022 AT 8:42 PM

ZEN CHOP

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So, this was taken rather hastily as I'm not trying to run the motor too long. The banging is coming from the driver's side now, but I swear it's moved from the passenger side. It almost sounded like a pulley, but the timing chain does make a good suspect. However, the last clip in total darkness is from the driver's seat with the door open facing down and it sounds like broken glass. This could simply be the hose clamps loosening but it sounds a lot more destructive than a metallic rattle. I have three days to get this van out of this parking lot and if I have to tow it then I'm going to be buying a different van I found earlier. I don't want to give up just yet though. Should I retrace everything I did to the engine, like removing intake manifold and rechecking spark plugs? It sounds great at idle, that's why it's almost like the knocking is a separate behavior. Kinda like when you put sneakers in the dryer and they randomly make noise, at least that's what I heard.
EDIT I do have a stethoscope now as well so if you tell me specifically what to test, I can try to put the earpiece up to the mic. I also have a decent omnidirectional mic I could use on my laptop, but it would be audio only if that would help. Maybe from underneath the motor it would give a new perspective.

Video (Click to make bigger)

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Tuesday, June 14th, 2022 AT 10:50 PM

JACOBANDNICKOLAS

MECHANIC
110,053 POSTS

I'm glad you recorded restarting it. It sounds like the timing is too advanced. If you notice when cranking, it turns, sounds like it is going to stop, and then continues turning. Has it always done that? Do me a favor. Make sure the starter is tight. I know you did a lot of work on it, so I'm not sure if you removed it for anything.

The next thought was the timing chain. However, the timing chains are at the front of the engine which is the passenger side. Listening to the video, it does sound louder on the driver's side which is where the transmission is located. That's why I am questioning if it is something like the starter, a flex plate bolt that is loose or cracked, or something between the engine and transmission.

If the RPMs increase, does the noise do the same? I'm wondering if it is something with the flywheel, torque converter, starter. Again, the good news (at least from my point of view) is the sound doesn't appear to be something internal within the engine. It actually sounds like it runs well other than the noise.

I sent this video to another tech to get his opinion. To me, it seems to be something around the flex plate. It could be cracked, the starter drive gear may not be fully retracted and hitting off the flex plate, a loose flex plate bolt, or something between the engine/trans.

If you can, try to place the recorder right down next to the bell housing on the transmission to see if it is louder.

Let me know. Also, and don't laugh, take a rubber mallet and tap on the exhaust to make sure it isn't a catalytic converter that has come loose internally. I don't think it is, but they can make a lot of noise.

Let me know.

Joe

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Wednesday, June 15th, 2022 AT 9:04 PM

ZEN CHOP

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Honestly the sound was much more pronounced on the passenger side when it initially started it's actually kind of transferred or traveled over to the driver's side within the last week of me having a park like that but the heavier sound was from the bottom of the passenger side when it first was noticed. I will do as you've suggested all tomorrow but I must admit I am in the process of buying a different van, a 94 Ford Econoline 150 registered as a camper and will be transferring everything to that van starting tomorrow. I guess I better get a look at the housing before I buy the Econoline outright but with the e150's added space and comfort it honestly makes more sense than buying a teardrop trailer to pull behind a Freestar. But if I can get the Freestar running properly then at least I can get more than scrap value for it. Especially fully gutted like it is maybe a farm work van or a mobile sound system for a DJ or a demolition derby knockaround haha. I will update with video and pics of what I find first thing in the morning. Oh, and I guess if you have any info or insight onto or into what I should expect working on the e150 for the next couple years that would be awesome. I'm sure I'm going to be getting plenty of wrench time with this project.

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Wednesday, June 15th, 2022 AT 9:17 PM

JACOBANDNICKOLAS

MECHANIC
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Hi,

I understand and agree the Ford would be a good choice. Their vans are well built. As far as working on them, most of the work is done from in the van. You have to remove what they call the dog box and then the engine is right in front of you. LOL

As far as room, I'm not sure what engine it has so that's a tough question to answer. Also, with today's market, you may want to get your van running. If it runs, it has a value. LOL You would be surprised what people are getting for vehicles.

Regardless, let me know what I can do to help.

Take care,

Joe

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Wednesday, June 15th, 2022 AT 10:10 PM