Clutch pedal flat on the floor and pool of liquid under car?

Tiny
MRPAULHARRIS
  • MEMBER
  • 2012 VOLKSWAGEN TRANSPORTER
  • 2.0L
  • 4 CYL
  • 2WD
  • MANUAL
  • 205,000 MILES
One morning I found the clutch pedal flat on the floor. I could pull it back, but it had no spring to it and just pushed to the floor easily.

There was a damp spot under the vehicle, so I think some brake fluid leaked out. There are some drips under the bottom of the gear box.

I tried topping the master cylinder reservoir with brake fluid, as it looks to be a little low, but it's hard for me to tell, because I find it difficult to see a brake fluid line in the plastic reservoir. I opened the cap, but it has a yellow filter so I still can't really see in to check the level.

I cannot find any leaking along the pipes that go from the reservoir to the master cylinder and all along to the slave cylinder. The slave cylinder is quite hard to see, but I can inspect it from below and I can see no signs of leaks.

I also looked at the master cylinder at the top of the clutch pedal and can see no signs of leaking inside the vehicle.

A week before this occurred when starting off from first gear I felt a judder as I pulled the clutch pedal out - the vehicle shook a little as it went into motion. It did not occur on higher gears. On the last day the judder stopped happening. Then the next morning, seemingly overnight the pedal was on the floor with a stain of liquid under the vehicle engine.

What should I check for next?

The attached image shows the reservoir, master cylinder (at the top of the clutch pedal) and the slave cylinder (from below).
Thursday, May 11th, 2023 AT 4:41 AM

18 Replies

Tiny
STEVE W.
  • MECHANIC
  • 13,496 POSTS
With the description of fluid loss and no clutch I would say the slave cylinder failed inside the bell housing. It can be replaced easily by removing the starter and setting it out of the way, then remove the line clip and unbolt the two bolts and remove it. What I wonder though it what caused it to fail? When was the last time the clutch was serviced? The shudder as the clutch was released almost sounds like it's starting to fail. Those have a dual mass flywheel and those act very strange when things start to go bad.
There are a number of YouTube videos on the replacement of the clutch without all the special tools. They never sold the T5 here in the US but looking at the service info and knowing how other VW clutches behind that engine act, I would pull the slave cylinder and check it first, then inspect the interior of the bellhousing for shrapnel. If anything looks suspicious, I would replace the clutch.
For your viewing pleasure -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uChGCz1XntQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLcvNSpQxUg
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Friday, May 12th, 2023 AT 12:46 AM
Tiny
BORIS K
  • MECHANIC
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Hello,

As my colleague wrote I would advise to inspect the clutch slave cylinder.
This is the only part which could cause fluid leak at the bell housing.
As it is external this part is easily replaced.

To check brake fluid level please see image below

A good video:
https://youtu.be/YKkKEh0tXqc

Check clutch not working:
https://www.2carpros.com/articles/clutch-doesnt-work-sometimes-or-not-at-all

A good link on how to replace the clutch slave cylinder:

https://www.volkswagenownersclub.com/threads/diy-2-5l-mkv-slave-cylinder-replacement-clutch-5-speed-manual-transmission.88826/

Cheers, Boris
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Friday, May 12th, 2023 AT 9:53 AM
Tiny
MRPAULHARRIS
  • MEMBER
  • 17 POSTS
Thank you for your insights. Do you have any images or videos to show how to remove the starter motor and then the slave cylinder on a T5?

The video's on how to remove the clutch was very helpful (and looks like a significant undertaking). I am hoping that removing the starter motor is less involved.

I wasn't sure what the bellhousing was, so I looked it up. For other people referencing this thread it is:

"the portion of the transmission that covers the flywheel and the clutch or torque converter of the transmission on vehicles powered by internal combustion engines." (Image below).
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Friday, May 12th, 2023 AT 11:38 PM
Tiny
STEVE W.
  • MECHANIC
  • 13,496 POSTS
The starter Is bolted into the face of the bellhousing with 2 bolts. You would disconnect the negative battery cable then go underneath to disconnect the battery cable and the smaller starter wire, then remove the two bolts and remove the starter. Then you can get to the slave cylinder.
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Saturday, May 13th, 2023 AT 12:08 AM
Tiny
MRPAULHARRIS
  • MEMBER
  • 17 POSTS
Slave Cylinder - How It Attaches to Bellhousing.

I removed a big air pipe so I could better see the starter motor and slave cylinder. I could see no obvious signs of leaks externally. I could not see any bolts attaching it to the bellhousing, so I'm not sure how it should be removed to check the inside. I did give it a bit of a wiggle and there seems a couple of mm of play in it.

How should I remove the slave cylinder, if there are no bolts attaching it to the bellhousing?
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Sunday, May 14th, 2023 AT 6:44 PM
Tiny
MRPAULHARRIS
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Slave Cylinder - Condition Further Up The Pipe.

It appears to have a bee on it, and a couple of clips and a bleed valve. No obvious leaks.
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Sunday, May 14th, 2023 AT 6:45 PM
Tiny
MRPAULHARRIS
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Leaks Under The Clutch - Still Leaking Two Weeks After Clutch Failure

There appears to be a bolt missing, with some wetness around it (first image, left hand side). What would normally bolt into there?

There is what looks to be brake fluid coloured droplets still leaking 2 weeks after clutch pedal was found flat on the floor.

Do these images / video give any hint as to where the leak is coming from?
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Sunday, May 14th, 2023 AT 6:53 PM
Tiny
MRPAULHARRIS
  • MEMBER
  • 17 POSTS
Starter Motor and Slave Cylinder From Below The Vehicle

Here is the starter motor from below. I can see 1 bolt, and also two electrical connections. Can it be removed entirely from below, or do I need to access a bolt from above?

The second picture shows the slave cylinder from underneath the van, just next to the starter motor.
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Sunday, May 14th, 2023 AT 6:59 PM
Tiny
STEVE W.
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Something doesn't look correct. That looks like one of the later units with the integral slave cylinder inside the housing. This is the original engine, correct? Looking at the images you can see it's leaking at the seam between the engine and transmission so it's likely inside the bellhousing. Which country was this one built for, that might make a difference.
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Sunday, May 14th, 2023 AT 9:36 PM
Tiny
MRPAULHARRIS
  • MEMBER
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It is built for Australia. The engine is CFCA 132kw. This is the original engine that came with the van. Do the images imply there is a failure at the seam? Or is it just that the slave cylinder is leaking, and because it is inside the bellhousing that is causing fluid to appear at the bottom of the engine / transmission?

And what is this missing bolt hole (red arrow) for?

What would you recommend I check next?
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Sunday, May 14th, 2023 AT 9:47 PM
Tiny
STEVE W.
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Empty hole is used for other vehicles. Okay, found the clutch assembly for yours, it's an
integral unit, used in the mid-year update to the T5, they used it on some builds from 2010 with one transmission and it went into them all mid 2012, yours must be a mid to late 2012 build. That would also explain the fitting on the bellhousing as it's a pass through line. If it failed it isn't going to be a simple repair as I wrote above, the integral units have to be removed with the transmission removed from the engine, if you are doing that you may as well do a full clutch service on it as it will have to be split. To inspect it you can remove the starter and use an inspection camera to see inside to find the leak, but that is a typical failure mode of the integral units.
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Sunday, May 14th, 2023 AT 10:47 PM
Tiny
MRPAULHARRIS
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It turns out that my slave cylinder (which is an internal concentric slave cylinder) has failed. Its seals have broken and that resulted in brake fluid emptying out into the transmission.

Do I just need to replace the slave cylinder? Or will the brake fluid damage my transmission components (ie Flywheel, Cover assembly, Clutch plate, Flywheel Bolts)?

Or is it worthwhile just to replace the transmission components anyway, while doing the slave? The reason I ask is that the slave cylinder is relatively cheap, but to buy a kit with all the transmission components (including slave) costs about $3,000 in Australia.
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Thursday, June 1st, 2023 AT 9:42 PM
Tiny
STEVE W.
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If the clutch looks okay and doesn't show a lot of wear you could re-use it. It also depends on the labor to take it apart. Say the labor to replace the slave is 6 hours at $200 an hour. You could save some money if the flywheel and pressure plate looks good by just replacing the clutch plate on it's own. That would give you new friction surfaces at least.
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Friday, June 2nd, 2023 AT 1:03 AM
Tiny
MRPAULHARRIS
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Thanks Steve, so you don't think brake fluid will damage those parts?
And they only need replacing if they are looking worn due to long term use?
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Friday, June 2nd, 2023 AT 1:31 AM
Tiny
BORIS K
  • MECHANIC
  • 799 POSTS
Hello,

At 205,000 miles, unless the clutch assembly has been replaced before, it would be prudent to replace the complete setup. Brake fluid will not damage the metal parts, pressure plate and dual mass flywheel, but it will soak into the clutch disc fibers.

The condition of the pressure plate and dual mass flywheel can only be determined once removed

I suggest try contact the below as they appear to ship to Australia.

https://clutchstop.co.uk/products/transporter-t5-1-2-0-tdi-6-speed-dual-mass-flywheel-and-clutch-kit.html?setCurrencyId=4

They list a complete clutch kit with dual mass flywheel for under 1000 Aus$.

Cheers, Boris
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Friday, June 2nd, 2023 AT 3:55 AM
Tiny
STEVE W.
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The fluid won't hurt the iron parts, but it will be absorbed by the clutch facing. With the mileage it would be better to replace it all, but if money is an issue, you could replace just the disk, if the other parts are in good shape.
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Friday, June 2nd, 2023 AT 6:23 AM
Tiny
MRPAULHARRIS
  • MEMBER
  • 17 POSTS
Final Solution.

Since the transmission needed to be removed from the engine, I had to take it to a mechanic to do the job. Thank you for the link to the complete clutch kit, but on further investigation the seller said it was not suitable for my vehicle. In the end it cost me $AU3500 for a clutch kit (plus installation costs). I had it installed and now it all works.

I am somewhat annoyed that a slave cylinder failure causes liquids to spray all over the internals of the transmission making it necessary to replace that at a very high cost and effort.

However, I am very grateful for the dialog here on 2CarPros. It really helped me to understand the whole process and the options open to me, thank you!
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Saturday, September 30th, 2023 AT 11:49 PM
Tiny
STEVE W.
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Thank you for the update. The idea of having a smaller part fail and costing far more money than it should is unfortunately common in vehicles. The end result is that it costs more for even minor repairs.
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Sunday, October 1st, 2023 AT 8:52 AM

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