The brakes are slowing down the car while driving?

Tiny
JIMMY888
  • MEMBER
  • 2002 OLDSMOBILE ALERO
  • 2.2L
  • 4 CYL
  • 2WD
  • AUTOMATIC
  • 16,000 MILES
Hi, this is my grandson's car 12 miles away he said that the brakes are going to the floor when I went over there to bring it back to my house to fix it the brake pedal would go to the floor but sometimes as i'm pumping them they will stay up as if the power booster is not working. So, I bought a new check valve for the booster installed that seems to fix the problem I was able to drive it to my house with a bad master cylinder all I had to do was pump it once to get the pressure and slow down like normal ps. Six months ago, I replaced all the brake components in the front pads rotors hoses calipers FYI). I was going to do the same thing this time plus a master cylinder. One thing I did do incorrectly was bench bleeding the master cylinder it came without instructions and I haven't done master cylinder in 35/40 years so I'm pretty sure there was air still in the master cylinder when I installed it, I put it all together and took it for a test drive I got 2 miles away and the brakes were slow me down again as if I was stepping on the brakes I could smell the brake pads. I made it back to my house and jacked it up and put it in neutral and all the wheels would not turn an hour later cooled off they rotate it like normal. Now I have replaced the brake booster and the exact same thing is happening so the only thing I could think of is me screwing up the master cylinder bench bleeding process so I bought another master cylinder this one had instructions I did exactly per instructions I installed it went to bleed the brakes again and i'm barely getting fluid out of the brake calipers i'm not getting any brake fluid out of two of the four only one has fluid coming out of it really good the other three are just a little bit and one dripped out. One more thing my grandson also told me that the brakes would either go to the floor or stay up as if the brake booster is bad all the same time it was either no brakes or cut and applied brakes unless you're arnold schwarzenegger. I know this is a tough one but any help I would appreciate it maybe abs is going bad or air in it, I'm not sure again this last time when I install the second master cylinder and started it up to take her for a test drive the traction light was on the dash for a few seconds I pump the brakes it went off. Thank you. James
Monday, March 25th, 2024 AT 1:17 PM

9 Replies

Tiny
CARADIODOC
  • MECHANIC
  • 33,910 POSTS
Hi James. That's a lot of detail to follow, so let me start out with a few suggestions to get you started. GM uses an unusual design for the master cylinders on their front-wheel-drive cars. They incorporate a valve assembly to block two ports if a leak develops. You likely tripped the valve by performing normal bench-bleeding procedures. Once the valve trips, you will not get brake fluid to flow at one front brake and the opposite rear one. You may be told you can avoid this by bleeding the brakes in a specific order, typically starting with the right rear, then the left rear, etc. You may even read that in some service manuals, but it doesn't make sense. Suppose the metal line to the right rear brake rusts out and starts leaking. The procedure implies the valve won't trip, but that is not the case. For all vehicles, I always start bleeding at the wheel I'm standing closest to. You will not prevent the valve from tripping from anything to do with which wheel you start with.

When you do bench-bleeding, and if you use a helper to do pedal-bleeding on the car, never push the master cylinder over halfway down. That should prevent the valve from tripping, but there's one more important point that applies to all car brands and models. Once a master cylinder gets to be roughly a year old or more, crud and corrosion build up in the lower halves of the bores where the pistons don't normally travel. Pushing the pedal to the floor runs the pistons, and their rubber lip seals over that crud and can rip them. That results in a slowly-sinking brake pedal, and that often takes two or three days to show up. This corrosion doesn't apply to a master cylinder less than about a year old, but we still have to consider that valve in GM units.

It is not necessary to replace the master cylinder when that valve trips. The only way I have found to reset it is to go to one of the wheels where fluid is not flowing, open the bleeder screw, then give it a quick, short squirt of compressed air. The cover should be loosened on the brake fluid reservoir too. You don't have to get carried away. I just slap the handle on the air nozzle with the side of my hand, (like I'm doing a light karate chop). After that, let that circuit gravity-bleed. The air will be expelled in less than half a minute.

When you have a problem with brakes that are dragging and smoking, especially right after a recent service, it is due to brake fluid being trapped under pressure and it is not able to return freely to the reservoir. The goal then is to get the brakes to lock or drag, stop on a slight incline, place a block about a foot downhill of one tire, shift to neutral, then open the hydraulic system in various places to determine where the fluid is being blocked. I like to start with loosening the lines right at the master cylinder. They're easy to get to, and effectively open each circuit right in the middle. If opening those fittings doesn't let the fluid release, go underneath and open the bleeder screws on the front calipers. If that works, the first thing to consider is whether there is a metal anchor bracket crimped around the rubber flex hose. Rust can form inside that crimp and squeeze the hose closed. You'll be able to force brake fluid through that restriction with your foot on the pedal, but the fluid won't be able to release until the bleeder screw is opened. This is common on Chrysler products, but the crimped bracket is pretty easy to open up with a large flat-blade screwdriver or with a pair of large pliers. The same thing can happen on Toyotas and other imports, but they use a different design that requires the hose to be replaced. To my knowledge, this is not a common GM problem.

When opening the bleeder screws doesn't let the brakes release, it's not due to trapped fluid under pressure. Look for a mechanical problem such as debris behind the piston in the caliper, (especially common right after pressing the piston in to make room for new, thicker brake pads), or the caliper is sticking on its slides or mounting bolts. That will keep the outer pad applied. Calipers on slides should have those contact points lubricated with special high-temperature brake grease after cleaning off any rust, dirt, or high spots with a file. Mounting bolts should also be lubricated only after they've been inspected for rust or lifting chrome plating. Mounting bolts with rust must be replaced. Once the chrome plating has lifted, the rust will come back and cause the same sticking problem.

If the brakes do release when you loosen lines at the master cylinder is when I get worried. One of three things has happened. The least serious is the brake light switch is out of adjustment and is holding the brake pedal down a little. The second suspect is the push rod is misadjusted on the front of the power booster. This is more of an import thing. While they are adjustable, that is not something we are supposed to adjust. It's done by the rebuilder or on the assembly line and shouldn't be touched after that. The push rods on most domestic vehicles are not adjustable, but to see if either of these causes is the problem, when the brakes are locked, loosen the two mounting nuts holding the master cylinder to the booster. Let the master cylinder slide forward about 1/8th inch. If the brakes release, look at the brake light switch or the booster.

The most serious case is where the brakes do not release when moving the master cylinder forward on the booster, and when they do release when one or two lines are loosened. That means the fluid is being trapped from flowing back up into the reservoir even though the pistons in the master cylinder are fully released. That is caused by the brake fluid being contaminated with a petroleum product such as engine oil, transmission fluid, power steering fluid, penetrating oil, or wheel bearing grease. Petroleum products cause rubber parts to swell and become mushy. In the master cylinder, the rubber lip seals grow past the fluid return ports and block them. The only way to get the trapped fluid to release is to open the line anywhere between the line at the master cylinder, and the bleeder screw. This gets to be a very expensive repair. All parts containing rubber parts that contact the brake fluid must be replaced, otherwise the contamination from one part will leach out and recontaminate the new fluid and new parts. This means replacing the front calipers, rear wheel cylinders or calipers, four rubber flex hoses, master cylinder, rubber bladder seal under the reservoir cap, and the combination valve. Follow the lines from the master cylinder to the combination valve, usually right under the master cylinder on a frame rail. If steel braided rubber hoses are used coming off the master cylinder, those must be replaced too. If the car has anti-lock brakes, the hydraulic controller must also be replaced as it has rubber O-rings and gaskets inside. Those parts must all be removed at the same time, then the steel lines must be flushed with Brake Parts Cleaner, then dried, then the new rubber parts can be installed. Due to the wide variation in loading on pickup trucks and minivans, they usually also have a height-sensing proportioning valve near the left rear wheel. Those have rubber O-rings, so that valve must be replaced too.

The power booster shouldn't be involved in any of this, including the low brake pedal or when the brakes are locking. All it does it makes the brake pedal easier to push. If you do replace the booster, a professionally-rebuilt unit will come with a plastic cone in front, around the push rod. Don't remove that until after the booster is bolted to the car and you're ready to bolt on the master cylinder. If you get a used booster from a salvage yard, it is important to not let it lay flat, either when carrying it or when transporting it. GM uses an odd double diaphragm design that uses a valve that will fall out of position if the booster is transported flat. The typical mechanic or driver won't notice anything unusual, but the owner of the car who is familiar with how it feels will know right away the power assist is not normal.

See how far you get with these ideas, then let me know what you find.
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Monday, March 25th, 2024 AT 4:18 PM
Tiny
JIMMY888
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  • 5 POSTS
Hi and thank you for replying so quickly. I will get back on this tomorrow Saturday morning I will let you know.
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Friday, March 29th, 2024 AT 2:03 AM
Tiny
KEN L
  • MASTER CERTIFIED MECHANIC
  • 48,323 POSTS
You will need to bleed the ABS system by opening the internal valves, here is a guide to help you. Also, when the brakes are hard to push loosen the brake master cylinder mounting bolts two turns is see if the system releases.

https://www.2carpros.com/articles/brake-pedal-goes-to-the-floor

and

https://www.2carpros.com/articles/how-to-bleed-or-flush-a-car-brake-system

Please go over these guides and get back to us.
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Saturday, March 30th, 2024 AT 11:00 AM
Tiny
JIMMY888
  • MEMBER
  • 5 POSTS
Hi Ken, I was able to borrow a scanner from my friend at work it does work on this car. I plan on doing this on Saturday it's been raining here in northern Illinois for two or three days and supposed to rain all the way through I think late Thursday night but I did get the brakes unseized by moving the master cylinder forward a little bit so I put a spacer about an 1/8 thick behind the master cylinder and I took it for a test drive and the wheels did not seized up at all, it just the brake pedal goes a little to low down for my liking so I'm going to use this machine to bleed the ABS Saturday and go from there and thank you. I will let you know.
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Wednesday, April 3rd, 2024 AT 4:23 PM
Tiny
KEN L
  • MASTER CERTIFIED MECHANIC
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Sounds good, this should help fix the problem.
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Thursday, April 4th, 2024 AT 7:40 AM
Tiny
KEN L
  • MASTER CERTIFIED MECHANIC
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Anything?
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Saturday, May 11th, 2024 AT 1:02 PM
Tiny
JIMMY888
  • MEMBER
  • 5 POSTS
Yes, I'm not 100% that all fours brakes are working maybe just a front left in the rear right but stopping really good now I have a different problem working on now, the rack and pinion when the park comes in I got to get on that but I was wondering how do you donate to your go fund me (where is the link to that).
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Monday, May 13th, 2024 AT 2:43 AM
Tiny
KEN L
  • MASTER CERTIFIED MECHANIC
  • 48,323 POSTS
Did you try to loosen the brake master mounting bolts two turns when the brakes lock up to see if they release?

https://gofund.me/c7d318ad

Please start a new thread for the steering/park issue. thank you, here is the go fund me link.

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Monday, May 13th, 2024 AT 10:00 AM
Tiny
CARADIODOC
  • MECHANIC
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Sorry for the delay. I have two comments of value from the most resent replies. First, a spacer behind the master cylinder is a clue but not a solution. Adjustment of the brake light switch should be the next thing to check. If that is holding the brake pedal from fully releasing, you should be able to stop the brakes from dragging by pulling the brake pedal up with your toes.

Second, the common symptom when the valve in the master cylinder is tripped is the pads on one front brake will wear out to the point of grinding metal on metal way too quickly, while those on the other side will look like brand new. People have been known to put on three and four sets of replacement pads without finding the cause of the rapid wear. Part of the problem stems from how differently cars acted in the '70s and '80s. With old, heavy, rear-wheel-drive cars, if one front brake was intentionally disabled, applying the brakes would tear the steering wheel out of your hand if you weren't prepared for the surprise. A small driver would not be able to hold the steering wheel straight. Brake systems were split into the front and the rear systems, so unintentional disabling of one system due to a leak had no effect on steering since both brakes on that axle were disabled together.

When front-wheel-drive cars showed up, around 80 percent of the vehicle's weight was on the front wheels. With a leak in the front and only the rear brakes working, the rear brakes would lock up and the car would keep going until they found you in the next county. To address that weak braking, they went to the split-diagonal system that everyone uses today. With a failure in one system, you'll still have 50 percent braking power. Now we're back to having just one front brake and the opposite rear one when a leak develops in one system. The reason the steering wheel doesn't get torn out of your hands is they designed in a small change to the geometric relationship of the suspension system. That's "scrub radius". The drawing below is a copy of what I handed out for class notes. While road forces pull the tire back when braking, section "X" is larger than section "Y", so that makes the tire want to pull to the right during braking. The two pulls offset each other and you get nice straight, controlled braking with just one working front brake. This is where you get the false impression the brakes are fine. Chrysler had this so well tuned that there was no way to notice there was a problem except for the red "Brake" warning light on the dash. For some other manufacturers, the only telltale clue is a very subtle wiggle in the steering wheel when first applying the brakes.

My magnificent drawing shows the older, heavier "short / long arm" suspension system with an upper and a lower ball joint as the steering pivots. On your model, those pivots are the lower ball joint and the upper strut mount, but the reaction is the same with either design.

Quick ways to verify the valve in the master cylinder is tripped is to run the engine, in gear, with both front tires off the ground. Accelerate just a little, then apply the brakes. One wheel will keep rotating. Another way is to skid to a stop on sand or gravel. All ABS systems become deactivated below 9 mph, so you should see the skid mark of one front tire, but not the other one. If you have the wheels off, the preferred method is to open the bleeder screws on both front calipers, then watch for brake fluid flow when a helper pushes the brake pedal. You won't get any fluid from one caliper when that valve is tripped.

To reset that valve is uncommonly easy, but you need compressed air and a rubber-tipped nozzle. Loosen the cover on the brake fluid reservoir. Close the bleeder screw on the working caliper. Open only the bleeder on the non-working front caliper. With the air nozzle, give a very quick, short burst of air into the bleeder screw. There's no need to push air all the way up to the master cylinder; in fact, you want to avoid that. I do a quick karate chop on the nozzle's handle. At that point, let the system gravity-bleed on its own. Brake fluid will begin flowing within less than half a minute unless there's a lot of air in the line from previous service.

Another way this problem can be caused is by doing a normal front brake job. The pistons have to be pushed back into the caliper housings to make room for the new, thicker pads. The last step of the service is to pump the brake pedal to run those pistons back out to adjust them. I already mentioned the damage that can be done by pushing the brake pedal to the floor, but in addition, on GM vehicles, that can trip the valve in the master cylinder. Due to differences in friction, one piston will move out first, then that system will start to build pressure. That pressure hasn't had a chance to build yet in the other system, so that imbalance makes the valve trip. You'll have a high, solid brake pedal with no indication of the problem just caused. To avoid both of these potential problems, never push the brake pedal over halfway to the floor, and push it slowly. My experience has been the pedal must be pushed over three quarters to the floor for the valve to trip.
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Monday, May 13th, 2024 AT 5:02 PM

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