Brakes were squealing pretty bad

Tiny
CVAS828
  • MEMBER
  • 2009 DODGE RAM
  • 5.7L
  • V8
  • 2WD
  • AUTOMATIC
  • 160,000 MILES
Truck listed above is a 1500.
Having an issue with air in the system or maybe another problem I'm unaware of.

Brakes were squealing pretty bad. Decided to do a simple brake pad replacement which I ended up replacing both front calipers and rear passenger caliper. Pads were worn unevenly on front passenger side. Unbolted top bolt and loosened bottom bolt on caliper bracket. Was having trouble rotating caliper down to access pads and noticed the piston was slightly indented/damaged. Was able to pry it off but damaged the piston pretty bad during the process. Front driver side boot on the caliper was shot and rear passenger side caliper had some damage to the face of the piston as well. During the caliper replacement(s) I accidentally allowed the fluid reservoir to completely empty.

Installed new pads all around, new calipers. I did not replace rotors. Using the manual bleed method with a friend in the cab and a homemade bleeder bottle I bled the brake system starting with furthest caliper from the master cylinder and ending with the closest.

Started the vehicle and brake pedal went all the way to the floor with no resistance. My braking power was only at the very end of travel. Basically I could stop the vehicle at the very end of the pedal travel, which was/is at the literal floor. Went through another brake bleed process with the same results.

Decided to replace the master cylinder after making sure I had no leaks. Bench bled the master cylinder, replaced it, topped it off and processed another brake bleed with the same results. Pedal to the floor and with the new master cylinder it seems to have worsened the condition of no resistance. Had no partner this time. Using the homemade brake bleed bottle. With the bottle 1/3 full and clear hose at the bottom went through the brake bleed procedure once again. Same results.

Purchased an Autel scanner with ABS bleeding capabilities. Went through the bleeding procedure on the scanner. Was unsure if I could process this by myself. Basically I am unsure if the pedal has to be depressed the entire time and a second person has to open the bleeder when given the instruction to do so on the scanner. My procedure was as followed.

Connected scanner to truck
Selected ABS brake bleed
Scanner asked to depress brake pedal
Brake pedal depressed
Scanner activated ABS (I could audibly hear the system engage)
Scanner said to open front right bleeder, depress brake pedal

I got out of truck, connected my bleeder bottle, opened bleeder valve on front passenger side I entered truck and depressed brake and selected ok on scanner.
Scanner activated ABS system then told me to close bleeder.
I exited the truck closed the bleeder and could see that fluid had been pushed out into the bleeder bottle.
The same procedure processed for the rear "right" bleeder.
After closing the rear right (passenger) bleeder entered the truck and pressed ok on scanner. Scanner started bleeding procedure was finished.

After the ABS bleed I re-bled the system manually with bleeder bottle. Started truck and issue was not resolved or improved. I redid the process twice more with no improvement or change. I'm at a loss now. Any ideas where I should start?
Saturday, June 26th, 2021 AT 2:00 PM

11 Replies

Tiny
JACOBANDNICKOLAS
  • MECHANIC
  • 109,755 POSTS
Hi,

It sounds like you are doing things correctly. I do have a question. When you had a helper, did you have him pump the brakes, hold pressure on the pedal, open the bleeder, close the bleeder and then release the pedal? Also, the automated bleed should have eliminated air from the ABS. Again, did you have the bleeder closed before releasing the brake pedal?

I attached the directions for the automated bleed procedure below. What you did sounds spot on. You may have gotten a bad MC.

Take a look through this link:

https://www.2carpros.com/articles/brake-pedal-goes-to-the-floor

Let me know.

Joe

See pic.
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Saturday, June 26th, 2021 AT 8:58 PM
Tiny
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Yes, that was the procedure I used for the first round of bleeding right after caliper replacement with a helper in the cab. Pedal depressed - bleeder open - pedal held down - bleeder closed - pedal up - repeat. I had removed the old calipers and during replacement the reservoir was ran dry. I installed new calipers and brakes topped off reservoir and began brake bleeding with helper.

The ABS bleeding and other subsequent bleeding were done alone with brake bleed bottle. As follows:

Bleeder bottle hose connected to bleeder and 1/3 full of fluid - bleeder opened - enter truck and depress peddle until no visible air bubbles - exit truck - bleeder closed - repeat in order of distance to master cylinder.

Since this post I have continued troubleshooting and this is what I have found. 1 caliper was not replaced (driver rear) it had no damage was in good condition. While bleeding I noticed it didn’t matter how open the bleeder was (1/4 turn, 1/2, etc) it would leak fluid from around the threads. I found a replacement bleeder screw and solved that issue.

I have bled the entire system several times using bleeder bottle method with no change in brake pedal. Also went through ABS bleed procedure again with no change.

Decided to change up bleed method. Using a long pipe wedged against the seat to depress brake pedal. I went through ABS bleeding procedure with pedal depressed throughout. After this I used this method to rebleed all 4 wheels. At this point very little air was coming out of the lines. By the third wheel I had almost no air escaping.

My procedure with the pipe wedge was as followed:

Pump pedal 2-3x with pipe - wedge pipe between seat and pedal in the depressed position - connected bleeder bottle to wheel - open bleeder - wait 4-5 seconds - close bleeder - pump pedal 2-3x - reset pipe - back to same wheel - open bleeder - repeat until no air bubbles. At the end there was no change.

I cleaned every brake surface I could find and inspected everything with a flashlight for leaks. Topped off the master cylinder turned the vehicle on and drove around the neighborhood. Brakes are the same. Pedal travels to the floor and my stopping power is at the end of travel. Parked the vehicle. And inspected every hose, caliper, the MC, booster. Found no sign of a leak. Reservoir was at the same level.

During my research I found a post stating if the ABS pump is bad it could cause this symptom. I pulled the fuse to this module with no change. My scanner has options to activate the valves on this pump. With the pedal depressed I energized each valve independently I believe there were 6. Some of the valves you could hear an audible click and some you could feel the pedal give way slightly. In the end this did not effect brake performance. There are no ABS codes stored.

With the vehicle engine off I can pump the brakes and the pedal gets hards. With foot on the pedal and vehicle turned on. The pedal will immediately and smoothly go to the floor with no resistance. With the vehicle "on" the brakes can be pumped and will slightly firm up and will slowly sink. If pressure is removed from pedal for a few seconds that firmness is gone and pedal is back to the floor.

Master cylinder was a new unit from NAPA. Of course that doesn’t mean it is a working unit. I did remove the lock ring from the old master cylinder and disassembled looking for seal damage etc. The old unit appeared to be functioning and had no signs of internal damage or heavy wear.

The ABS pump/module seems suspect to me. Is it possible when the reservoir went dry this unit could have been damaged? This is a used truck I purchased 4 years ago. It had 112,000 miles. It currently has 160,000. I had never changed the fluid during my ownership. The fluid was very dark.
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Sunday, June 27th, 2021 AT 8:33 AM
Tiny
JACOBANDNICKOLAS
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Hi,

I want you to try something. With the engine off, pump up the brakes so you have a pedal. Hold pressure on it and see if it slowly goes down.

I have a feeling the master cylinder is bad and the fluid is bypassing the plungers. That would cause the issue and why there are no leaks. Also, when you get power assist when starting the engine, it drops that much easier.

Let me know.
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Sunday, June 27th, 2021 AT 9:34 PM
Tiny
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Video attached. Pedal held firm from what I can tell. Not sure how much play there should be. You can see the travel distance when vehicle is started.
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Monday, June 28th, 2021 AT 10:15 AM
Tiny
JACOBANDNICKOLAS
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Hi,

I watched the video. That looks excessive. Is it actually reaching the floor? I'm asking because you indicate you're unsure of the play.

If you have no leaks, the system has been bleed, and there is nothing disconnected or damaged, the only thing I can think of is the master cylinder.

Keep in mind, if the brake pedal went to the floor for the first time since the master cylinder was installed, it may have damaged the plungers allowing the fluid to bypass.

Let me know.

Joe
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Monday, June 28th, 2021 AT 8:20 PM
Tiny
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With the vehicle on pedal reaches floor. Vehicle off, pedal pumped, and held there is very little movement. No sinking. What I meant was, you stated to pump and hold pedal, I am not sure how much “play” (movement) is consistent with a bad master cylinder. I am going to isolate the master cylinder and plug both primary and secondary ports and check for change in performance, if any.
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Monday, June 28th, 2021 AT 8:33 PM
Tiny
JACOBANDNICKOLAS
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If the master cylinder was bad, even with the engine off, if you held pressure on it, it would have slowly gone to the floor. When starting, the power assist just makes it happen easier and faster.

Let me know what you find.

Take care,

Joe
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Monday, June 28th, 2021 AT 10:34 PM
Tiny
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Was able to locate appropriate brass plug fittings. Plugged both ports on the MC peddle inside the cab was firm. Vehicle turned on with master cylinder plugged peddle was still firm. Removed near side plug and replaced brake line. Far side plug still in place peddle was soft. Replaced near side plug and re installed far side brake line pedal soft.

Master cylinder appears to be functioning. However, I did find a very small amount of fluid building up around the gasket where the reservoir seats against the master cylinder body. With the master cylinder clogged on both ports this fluid becomes more obvious but does not quite leak out. Due to this I have decided to return and replace the unit. I will update my results after replacement.
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Tuesday, June 29th, 2021 AT 11:32 AM
Tiny
JACOBANDNICKOLAS
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Hi,

It seems that there is still at some point. If you got a solid pedal with it plugged (engine running), that is my first thought unless you have a rubber brake hose expanding when the brakes are applied.

Let me know what happens when you replace the unit. I'm interested in knowing.

Take care,

Joe
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Tuesday, June 29th, 2021 AT 7:36 PM
Tiny
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New master installed with no improvement. Was able to secure a salvaged ABS pump/HCU swapped the control module from my vehicle onto the salvaged unit unfortunately this also did not change pedal performance. All bleeding procedure were performed with new master cylinder and ABS.

I decided to start from the beginning. Removed all 4 wheels inspected brake lines and and calipers again. I clamped off all 4 rubber brake lines at the calipers. With vehicle "on" pedal was firm. Removed rear right clamp, pedal firm. Removed rear left clamp, pedal firm. Removed front right clamp, pedal soft. Replaced front right clamp- removed front left clamp, pedal soft.

Removed front left caliper with brake line attached and unclamped, I depressed pedal. The top caliper piston extends fully the bottom piston extends only 1/8” to 1/4”. Using a caliper piston clamp tool I retracted the top piston and left the tool in place, blocking this piston from extending. With the truck on I depressed the pedal and the bottom piston extends fully. Once again I removed the piston clamp tool retracted both pistons flush with the caliper. With the vehicle on depressed the peddle and top piston extends fully bottom does not. I retracted the top piston, blocked it from extending, and depressed brake pedal allowing bottom piston to extend. With rubber brake line clamped. I connected the bleeder bottle and opened the bleeder. I depressed the brake pedal (edit: I did not depress pedal here, I retracted the piston) attempting to isolate any trapped air on that side of the caliper. Several bubbles exited the caliper. This however did not change caliper piston extending when both sides are unblocked

I performed the same test on the front right caliper. And the same issue is present except the bottom caliper extends fully and top caliper only very slightly.

Both of these calipers are new out of the box. Pistons extended fully when one side is blocked but only one piston will extend when both sides are open. There is only one hydraulic brake line going to the calipers.

Could this be an air pocket trapped somehow?

Bad brake line?

Both calipers bad out of the box?

How can I isolate the problem further without swapping a bunch of parts?

Any advice is welcome thank you for your time and help up to this point.
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Wednesday, June 30th, 2021 AT 11:10 AM
Tiny
JACOBANDNICKOLAS
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Both should extend at the same time. I have to ask a question.

Are the bleeders pointing upward? If you have the calipers on the wrong sides, the bleeder will be pointing down and you won't be able to properly bleed them.

Let me know.

Joe
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Wednesday, June 30th, 2021 AT 9:25 PM

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