Alternator-battery connection

Tiny
JIMB2020
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  • 2006 PONTIAC G6
  • 3.9L
  • V6
  • 2WD
  • AUTOMATIC
  • 150,000 MILES
So, after retiring this car for about two months as winter cold and freezing weather wreaked havoc through the land- I restarted the engine to check things out. I had placed a new battery back in May of 2020. I drove it for about 10 miles, shut it off, did some work and returned to drive back home. 5 miles later, the engine loses acceleration, IPC light lit up one after another and the power door locks locked and unlocked in a state of frenzy. I managed to escape multiple traffic lights but ultimately the engine stalled at an uphill one-way traffic light. I managed to back up the car into a parking garage where I did obdii scanning (a total of 18 codes! Mostly purge solenoid and emission related codes and TPS, Catalytic converter and other codes related to a past problem IMT stuck open and ISS low voltage. Unfortunately, I erased the DTC and could not replicate the codes many of which were repeats of the same thing). Then, I did some electrical testing. There was distinct rubber melting smell and smoke (which disappeared before I could determine the source- belt maybe? I thought to myself). Lighting and battery power seemed fine at the time of the breakdown. The next morning, I returned to do more testing. I found that the battery was literally dead. Jump starting did nothing more than move the car to the next garage a block away. I suspected the alternator. I got me a new one and in the freezing rain and snow, I replaced both the alternator and belt (belt had some rubbed or burned areas but still good; alternator tested at 15.2 volts output and still good). Tried to start the car; no go. Battery not being charged. I recharged the battery at a parts store, and went back to the site, installed and drove the car home (10 miles). Finally, at home the alternator isn't charging the battery. I tested the wiring, all grounds are in good condition. Alternator output is 14.8 v, but battery is 12.8 and going down. Finally, the car still running in the driveway, the engine begins to lose power again. Battery: 10.2 V and going down. I retested the battery and had it recharged at a part store. The same: Battery: good (the same pattern again). I decided to check out the BCM and interior fuses because I heard zapping sounds coming from that area after I shut off the engine. Heater blower motor fuse was blown (so was the auxiliary power outlet fuse back in the trunk fuse box). I replaced the fuses. What do I do next? One thing I am thinking: to attach a separate cable between the alternator post and the battery positive, run the engine and see if the alternator charges the battery? Is this possible (almost doubling the connection between the positive battery post and the alternator?) Just to see the difference or is this totally wrong way do things? When I test voltage using the alternator post, I get 14.8 V at the alternator but only 12.8 V at the battery when the engine is running (meaning the alternator isn't charging the battery), and I get 12.1 V at the alternator post when the engine isn't running. The bottom line is if the battery is damaged, why is it able to recharge from low 3 volts at the stores but not be maintained at 12.8 inside the engine bay being connected to the alternator? I say this because someone mentioned that this battery maybe good, but it is really failing? I don't get it. It is under warranty but why replace it when things aren't clear?
Sunday, February 21st, 2021 AT 7:32 PM

9 Replies

Tiny
JIMB2020
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Just doing a follow up on the above. So, I took the battery back to the retailer and they tested it and told me it was charged up but the cells inside were going bad and offered me a new battery. I installed the new battery, but it didn't solve the issue (as I predicted). So, I take it the alternator isn't charging the battery for sure and something is ruining it as well. I am not getting any DTCs besides the old problem of stuck open IMT with two codes the 2078 and 660. I did replace the IMT but it didn't fix the problem. I am not sure about one more thing: something smells like burning rubber. I lifted the car and looked everywhere but can't find melted or scorched wiring. I have yet to test the starter solenoid and B terminal but the car starts every time. Could something be taking the alternators charge away from the battery?
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Monday, February 22nd, 2021 AT 5:20 PM
Tiny
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This is why I often tell people to use a test light instead of a digital voltmeter. If you stop reading right here and retest what you did already, but with an inexpensive standard test light, you'll find different results.

You inadvertently stepped over the best clue in that you found different voltages at the battery's positive post and the generator's output stud. Those two are tied together by a fat wire, so there has to be the same voltage at both ends. You'll notice the starter solenoid is in that circuit too. Don't pay any attention to that. It is only there because GM often uses that as a convenient tie point so they don't have to run two separate wires back to the battery. That solenoid is not part of the charging system.

At some point the end of the wire at the generator became grounded, either by accidentally shorting it to ground with a wrench, or because two or more of the generator's six internal diodes were shorted. That burned open the fuse link, shown by my blue arrow in this diagram. That is why you see a higher voltage at the generator than at the battery. The generator can be thought of as a pump for electrical pressure, (voltage) and the battery is the storage tank, like the water tower for your city's water supply system. As long as the voltage is higher at the pump, current will try to flow into the battery, but it can't get there because of the blown fuse link. GM's voltage regulators are inside the generator, so the entire system is working properly and regulating at an acceptable 14.8 volts. It's not supplying the electrical system though. That's why the battery is running down as you drive.

The fuse link wire is usually located near the starter solenoid. You'll see at least one piece of heat-shrink tubing on it about four to six inches from the terminal. Tug on that wire to test the fuse link. If it's still good, it will act like a piece of wire. If it's burned open, it will act like a rubber band.

You can buy new fuse link wire from any auto parts store. They may even have special ones for GM vehicles that have the terminal already crimped on one end. You'll need to splice the other end to the red / black wire, then seal it with heat-shrink tubing with hot-melt glue inside. That will seal out moisture. These are typically about 12" long. You can cut them into two or three pieces to make multiple repairs. The length you install is not important. It simply needs to be a smaller diameter than the other wires it protects. That makes it the weak-link-in-the-chain, just like any other fuse, except it is a slow-acting fuse.

Fuse link wires are selected by color which denotes their current rating. Don't try to use a regular piece of wire. Fuse links have insulation that will not melt or burn.

There's one confusing thing related to fuse link wires. That is they form a coating of carbon on the inside of the insulation where arcing occurred as it burned open. The generator's output current can't get through that carbon, but when no current is trying to flow through it, no voltage is dropped across it either. For all practical purposes, a digital voltmeter doesn't rely on current flow through it to take a voltage reading, just like a pressure gauge on a compressed air line doesn't require air to flow through the gauge to take its readings. You start with 12.6 volts at the battery, drop 0 volts across the fuse link, carbon, and rest of the wire, so you end up with 12.6 volts at the generator, as you found.

Now try to do that with a regular test light with an incandescent bulb inside, not one of the new fancy ones with all kinds of electronics. The bulb requires current flow through it to light up, and that current can't get through the carbon track. It will correctly show 0 volts at the generator. Another way to see this is to take the reading with your voltmeter, then while you're seeing the 12.6 volts, touch the test light there at the same time. When you do, the voltage will drop to near 0 volts.
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Monday, February 22nd, 2021 AT 8:37 PM
Tiny
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Wow, the battery is charging at 14.8 V after I:

1. Replaced the starter (B post was half broken-I am not sure how that happened) and although was not a problem (I tested it), the pink S wire connector plastic housing to the solenoid was broken as well. These GM starters have plastic housing where the S terminal plugs into it, and they are so fragile; I noticed they're broken on many cars. They can cause intermittent no start because the S terminal connector just slips right out.
2. Replaced the nut-washer on the alternator post (there was a very light weight tin-like washer in between the post and the terminal. I don't think it was supposed to be there).
3. Replaced the fusible linked thick wire between the alternator and the B post on the starter solenoid.

I liked your "water pump-storage tank" metaphor on the alternator-battery relationship because it allows the listener to understand how electrons flow in a circuit (compared to current and the electromotive force or voltage)

Your test light test method also proved to be true. Of course, as you mentioned most of us think of a test light as too simple of a tool to solve our electrical dilemma. But in this case it was necessary to show how regardless of voltage the connection just wasn't there.
Now, I was prepared to splice the fusible link per instructions. However, I got me a whole fusible link wire from another G6. I found an Impala's wiring as well (the same engine 3.9, but it was thicker (good maybe) and shorter (which prevented me from choosing it as an option). As always, I am thankful for your instructions and help.

James
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Sunday, February 28th, 2021 AT 5:27 PM
Tiny
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So are you saying the system is working now? I suspect it is.

As for your observation of different fuse link wires, this is one item that needs a mention, especially for the benefit of other who might see this when researching a similar problem. Very often a car model could come with one of multiple choices in fuse link wires. Depending on factory-installed options including cruise control, air conditioning, high-output or rear heater, and rear-window defroster, those packages usually include an optional larger generator. A smaller generator could come with a 12-gauge fuse link wire, while a larger one would come with a 10-gauge fuse link. The wire has to be large enough to handle the full output of the generator for a short time. In the rare event two diodes were to short inside the generator, that would cause a dead short, and any fuse link wire will burn open.

Where it's possible to get into trouble is many of us think if big is good, bigger is better, and they bolt on a higher-output replacement generator. I must also point out the generator is physically incapable of developing more output current than it is designed and rated for. Lets say that's a real common 90-amp unit. The next important detail is they will only develop as much current as the vehicle needs, and no more. With head lights on, and heater on a lower speed, a typical car might need around 30 amps including a little to recharge the battery. Now if you replace the generator with a 120-amp unit, it is still going to develop only 30 amps. This would equate to a municipal water pump that can pump 100 gallons per minute, but since the tower is full, it's actually going to pump just as much as the people are using, and no more. If they install a 150 gallon pump, it isn't going to pump any more than the old pump.

For your car, that means no matter how big the generator is you install, it won't matter to that fuse link wire, ... That is until your mechanic comes along to perform a charging system test. Professional load testers have us dial up a heavier and heavier load on the system until system voltage drops no lower than 13.75 volts. The voltage regulator will see that and in response, run the generator harder and harder to keep up with demand. When it reaches that maximum output is when we take the current reading. It's also important to note that there's no such thing as a weak generator. It will develop very close to its rated current or, if it has one defective diode, very close to exactly one-third of its rated current. The point of interest is if you have a 90-amp generator, during this test is the only time it will ever develop 90 amps. The fuse link was chosen at the factory to handle 90 amps for enough time to make it through the test.

Now if someone installed the 120-amp generator, and your mechanic runs this charging system test, it's going to develop close to 120 amps for a few seconds, and that can burn open the fuse link. Now you'll have a no-charge condition. Of course the mechanic gets the blame, but he had no way of knowing this modification was done.

At this point, if you happened to notice the color of the fuse link, and it's the same on the old and the replacement cable, everything will be fine. Even if it is different, it's going to work fine because every fuse link is a smaller diameter than the wire it's spliced to and is protecting. It's still the weak link in the chain.
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Monday, March 1st, 2021 AT 8:08 AM
Tiny
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Okay, I see you what you're saying now. The bigger wire of the Impala does have a bigger fuse link (but as you said, it is smaller than the wire it is spliced into). I got it because of the saying "electrons travel the super highway less hindered." I didn't get a larger alternator/generator because I didn't want it to cause damage to the fuse link or the wiring (if a high load test is demanded of it). Now, to be specific for this G6 GTP, I got the exact same wiring and fuse link (same gauge, same fuse link and same color). The dealer advised TG-13 for the alternator. I did a search and physically examined many [many] cars and found that most had the TG-12, but I think they're rated the same. I did find a slight difference among the alternators: most of them had 60mm pulley and few had 58mm pulley. I did careful measurements on 4 of them. I removed them myself and found variations in the design of the lip of the pulley; but [where the grooves were], they all had identical "belt seats." I was worried about the "too tight belt" case scenario, but that wasn't the case. In short, yes absolutely the system is now charging spec. Here's what I am wondering at this point: if the alternator isn't going to output more or less than what the package calls for as you say (and you explain it well), then it shouldn't matter how high any one setting (AC, Heater for example) is kept at. So, when my sister drives the car and she keeps the Climate Control (AC or Heater) settings on highest, I shouldn't be cautioning her that such settings might melt fuse links at some point down the road. In other words, replacing the wiring and installing a larger output alternator/generator isn't necessary because the car came with these settings and the alternator and wiring were designed and rated for such extreme settings in case a driver chooses them- may I say- regularly, lol! I say this because your response actually triggered me to think that she may need a bigger wiring and a bigger alternator (but it is too late now: I've already installed the specified generator, fusible link and wiring).

I do have other questions concerning the performance of the IMT (variable induction valve), but I will open a new question inquiry (I have in the past but need more insight into this device).

Great instructions! Thanks

James
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Monday, March 1st, 2021 AT 12:56 PM
Tiny
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No need to worry about the size of the generator. The engineers look at all of the possible loads that could be turned on at the same time, which could be as much as 50 - 60 amps, then they install a generator with plenty of extra capacity. That's so it never gets run continuously at near that maximum rating.

As a point of interest, it's the stator windings that determine the output capacity. That's the stationary windings that you can see through holes in the housing. If you'd stretch those coils out, the copper wires would be about two feet long. To increase the output capacity, all that's needed is to add a couple of inches to those three wires. Additional cost might be 50 cents worth of copper, and they charge dozens more dollars for that generator.

As for the heater fan, my only comment of value, is at least on older models, that current came through one section of the ignition switch, and that current is hard on those little contacts and on the corresponding connector terminals. On a model as new as yours, heater fan current often comes through a relay that handles the high current. The people who have the most trouble are those who have a habit of turning the ignition switch on and off while the heater fan is set to one of the higher speeds. That results in a lot of arcing across the contacts. That results in resistance, and therefore heat build-up, and that can transfer to the connector terminals. This applied to my mother. She had ignition switches burn up and melt the connector body on two vehicles. Can't yell at your mother, so I always made sure to have a few good used switches on hand.

Happy to hear you solved your charging problem.
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Monday, March 1st, 2021 AT 2:02 PM
Tiny
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You're absolutely right. My sister drives it to work (which happens to be less that 5 miles away); on the way she stops to shop at least once or twice, pulls into the driveway listening to radio sermons, shuts it off while the Climate Control is still on high (to be fair I did that myself in the past until I pulled the radio fuse out, so it won't happen to either one of us) and waits for me to come out help her unload while the Pastor's Broadcast is still emanating out of the already silent car. The next morning it's key in the ignition and off she goes! On the weekend, the car is driven quite a bit, however. In the past year, I replaced the battery twice, the turn signal bulb and switch in the steering wheel once, the junction box once and the alternator three times. I also replaced the ISS (inside the transmission) once (but that didn't change the ISS 717 error code and, therefore, more testing is required. I will be looking into it here shortly). And now the IMT is stuck open. I replaced it, but no go. I am going to test the ground wiring, the voltage to the motor (through the PCM relay and 10 amp fuse) and the two signal wires to the ECU (fan position and variable turning of the valve). I am not saying all these failures are caused by driving habits, but this car has had a lot of electrical issues. I will be reopening a new question for the IMT and one for the ISS but any input right now is greatly appreciated.

James
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Tuesday, March 2nd, 2021 AT 10:16 AM
Tiny
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The engineers have added computers to systems that never needed computers before. In the '60s, Chrysler had ignition switch lights that stayed on for 20 seconds after the doors were closed so you could see to put the key in. That was done with a two-dollar thermal switch that had a 0 percent failure rate. Today they must have dome lights that fade out gradually. That's critically important, but it can only be done with an electronic module.

Some over-educated politicians want us to all drive with our headlights on all the time. On cars where that's automatic, they turn on the head lights but not the running and tail lights, so now every night I see three or four cars leaving the parking lot and they forgot to turn the lights on. For those of us who forget to turn the lights on, that could be done with a ten-dollar relay to do what the head light switch normally does, but instead, GM's engineers developed a daytime running light module that turns the high beams on at 80 percent. That also requires an electronic module, and now the person in front of you has to switch his "day / night" mirror to the "night" setting during the day because the yellowish bright lights are blinding him. Two hundred dollar computer module to do what a ten-dollar relay could do more reliably, and dimming the mirror defeats its purpose.

In Wisconsin motorcycles must have their headlights on so they'll stand out and be noticed. When all cars also have them on, no one notices the occasional motorcycle since they blend in and look no different. Hence, the law of unintended consequences. Motorcyclists are in more danger while accomplishing nothing for car drivers.

Electronics is very intolerant of heat, vibration, and moisture, so we pack way too much of it right where those conditions exist most. Very disappointing that no one makes one car model that's still simple and easy to repair. Oh well. I can still walk if I have to.

Good luck with your other problems. I'll pop in to dispense wondrous advice if asked and if necessary, but we have other experts who specialize in the areas you've mentioned.
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Tuesday, March 2nd, 2021 AT 3:44 PM
Tiny
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I didn't know that daytime lights (the ones that come on automatically) use 80% bright beam! I actually turn them off by turning the signal switch backward by about a quarter of a turn. But at night I never activate or deactivate the headlights; I let the car do that. Interesting what you mention about Motorcyclists. I actually feel for them because they are in grave danger and don't either realize it or care to realize it. But, yeah your points are well taken (modules have made things far more complicated than they should be). What was even worse on the G6 GTP they put the ECU/TCM at the front LH side (any accident would ruin these essential units before making any decisions in response to the collision!), And where specifically?Right under the windshield washer reservoir with its refill tube arching right over the connectors. I am like "why in the world would you do this?" So, yes heat, moisture, dirt, vibration and location are potential serious issues for everyone. Alright, I am very glad we got the chance to solve this electrical problem. Your help is priceless. Now, I will reopen the question regarding the IMT and ISS soon. I did some testing right before I saw your response and I got no ignition voltage to the IMT connector. At least I now know why replacing the IMT valve ($$) didn't do it. Have a great spring time. Later

James
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Tuesday, March 2nd, 2021 AT 4:24 PM

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